What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[portland_bill]

back in the industrial revolution when people were working 16 hour days and 7 day weeks maybe getting time off to go to church on a sunday, how many people were reading, writing, painting, sculpting, crafting or enjoying other hobbies in their spare time?

One thing I should add, in my last job I was commuting an hour each way every morning and evening for work. in busy often stressful traffic.

Back in the industrial revolution, people lived within sight of their work, so commuting was short, usually walking to the end of the road, with their neighbours and co-workers.

Now, people tend to live significant distances from their work, creating the commute stress. House prices have fuelled this to a degree, requiring both parties to work full time, often in different directions.
Where I live, there is little local employment, yet recently, and ongoing, there is much housebuilding, creating more commuters. At the same time as we are supposed to be reducing our CO2 output. No joined-up thinking.

I spent 11 years commuting 15 miles to work, then moved to Oxfordshire, and spent the next 16 years commuting 22 miles each way. Don;t miss that at all.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

But no accidents that don't happen get reported that's the baseline, the huge majority of driven cars hit nothing everyday.

This is true and self driving cars are very much in the minority but how many more deaths world wide would have been in the stastics if self driving cars had not prevented them, or how many just minor bumps and scrapes would have been added to the huge number if it were not for self driving tech.

we hear in seconds if a self driving car does something wrong but how many millions of motoring miles and hours are undertaken world wide each year in self driving modes without any event.....

I agree the current technology is not the best, and I agree the combination of drivers and driverless cars is not a long term practical solution.
but as I said even now if you could click your fingers and all cars where self driving with the current technology we already have we could more or less completely prevent all accidents between cars.

The current issues are very much of human cause and the unpredictability of human drivers.

But and this is the main problem..they are just good enough to give an idiot a feeling of safety. So they will happily abdicate all responsibility for their own personal safety to it appears trustworthy.

Absolutely, but we are in a transitional phase, there is never a time when you go from one thing, humans driving cars in this case, to fully autonomous cars as an end goal without there being some overlap. Many of the current issues that autonomous vehicles struggle with the most is navigating on roads where they have to predict what a bunch of people are doing.

They get complacent and then all of a sudden you're on your way to the office...but you're not as the lidar didn't realise there was another car on the otherside of that single track humpback bridge and also the speed limit is 60 so why wouldn't it be doing that over humpback bridge?

and with fully developed technology all cars in a local area will be able to communicate with all other cars and know where they are and avoid such a problem as this.

If you want to be technological utopian about it why are you going into the office? Surely paperwork of that nature can be completed anywhere? Similar to you, home worker self driving problem solved.

Arguable all office work could be done from home and if companies and the government were really serious about the environment and reducing emissions then they would encourage this but there are a host of jobs that people have to still travel to and from work each day.

If we ripped all roads up, demolished all existing towns, and got all manufacturers to agree on a universal standard of communication between vehicles and placed an immense amount sensor gear along the new and uniformly constructed roads. Yes that would work...

Which is essentially what I am saying and we are almost certainly moving towards.

Tesla boy in the video would be unlikely to have got near that train if he'd not been in a self-driving car.

If I remember correctly the driver actually admitted he had not spotted the train himself until the last minute and did not blame the car at all.
He also admitted that he was in control of the vehicle and it was his responsibility to have been looking out for such dangers which he missed.

The comparison you are making by saying this, is like saying I bought a flat headed screw driver but it doesn't work on Philips screws. The Tesla is not a fully autonomous vehicle and so these are instances where the driver should be ready to step in.

 

[The Panda Nut]

You don't think a society totally reliant on automation would be a retrograde step?

Wake up, drive to work in an automated vehicle, to a job that has become largely automated, drive home again in the same automated vehicle, watch AI controlled media, go to bed, wake up to the same routine again and again!
What a boring pointless life, no chance of challenges to encourage creativity or problem solving!
The only high light in such a boring life would be betting on the chance of the computer controls failing and driving you into that train!
If that doesn't push up the suicide rate then nothing will! Note this is a sardonic emoji laugh.

Or a liason with an android woman......... LOL

 

[StevenRB45]

The comparison you are making by saying this, is like saying I bought a flat headed screw driver but it doesn't work on Philips screws. The Tesla is not a fully autonomous vehicle and so these are instances where the driver should be ready to step in.

But....this is how it's going to be the budget to make this work is military/international level. We live in a country where filling a pothole in is a scientific impossibility.

So what we're going to get for 20 years is half-baked ****.

The truth in my statement hinges on whether or not the man in the Tesla would have had the confidence to go 5 over the speed limit in heavy fog without paying full attention.

I suspect not...his car drives itself normally why is today any different?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Back in the industrial revolution, people lived within sight of their work, so commuting was short, usually walking to the end of the road, with their neighbours and co-workers.

A good reason for that was that people were poor and could not afford a horse, cars did not exist and so if you wanted to get to work you had to walk, if factory owners wanted workers near their factories they had to build houses for them.
Pretty much the same thing has been happening in cities all over china in recent years where whole cities have popped up around a factory.

Now, people tend to live significant distances from their work, creating the commute stress. House prices have fuelled this to a degree, requiring both parties to work full time, often in different directions.

Because we have the ability to travel now and the world has changed a bit since we built those factories. that way of working has moved on. Technology allows us to do more and leave the menial jobs to the robots

Where I live, there is little local employment, yet recently, and ongoing, there is much housebuilding, creating more commuters. At the same time as we are supposed to be reducing our CO2 output. No joined-up thinking.

You're oxforshire/swindon area? so I suspect if you say they are building for commuters i suspect many of those commuters will be traveling either into london by train or the other direction towards Bristol or Birmingham? more than likely by train.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Transitional phase = a bunch of dead humans, collatoral damage. Dont worry about children unless they gum up the wheel arches and start to smell.
How DO you test this highly necessary and very usful safety equipment.

Just remember Panda is a 0 star vehicle because it doesnt have any of this pooh fitted. Its unsafe because it relies on its driver.

Now do I trust electronic kit or me the most. Please leave me a few moments while I ponder that one.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

But....this is how it's going to be the budget to make this work is military/international level. We live in a country where filling a pothole in is a scientific impossibility.

Same argument as electric cars here, Where is the budget to pay for the infrastructure. Over time standards will be set and future road building will incorporate those standards. 100 years ago people were still mainly using horse and car with cars mainly for the rich. roads and systems were not developed anything like they are now for modern traffic, so the budget is there, its just spread over decades and you won't notice it, it will slowly change with time.

So what we're going to get for 20 years is half-baked ****.

20 years ago, was 2004, we didn't have smart phone, tablets, computers built into watches. we didn't have a fraction of the technology we have now and the most advanced computers back then would not hold up to a wrist watch these days, so where will we be in 20 years time with technology ?

The truth in my statement hinges on whether or not the man in the Tesla would have had the confidence to go 5 over the speed limit in heavy fog without paying full attention.

People frequently drive over the speed limit in and out of fog and pay little attention to what's going on around them, hence why we still have so many accidents on the road.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Transitional phase = a bunch of dead humans, collatoral damage. Dont worry about children unless they gum up the wheel arches and start to smell.
How DO you test this highly necessary and very usful safety equipment.

Just remember Panda is a 0 star vehicle because it doesnt have any of this pooh fitted. Its unsafe because it relies on its driver.

Now do I trust electronic kit or me the most. Please leave me a few moments while I ponder that one.

do you remember when we put people in metal tubes and sent them into the air for the first time ? then despite many of those metal tubes crashing into the ground we strapped jet engines on to those metal tubes and sent more people flying through the air even faster and crashing even more spectacularly.....

Collateral damage??

We now have the safest aviation industry there has ever been, despite boeings efforts to change that.

same with cars, you had to have a man walking with a red flag in front of them, women were not allowed to travel in cars because their disposition would not cope it was claimed you would die if you went above 40 mph. etc etc.

if we went back 100 years we could probably be having this argument over cars replacing horses, or a couple of hundred years we'd be talking about how dangerous steam engines are.

the biggest cause of accidents in any industry is people people make mistakes or do stupid things and this causes accidents, take the person out of the equation and you increase safety.

 

[StevenRB45]

Same argument as electric cars here, Where is the budget to pay for the infrastructure. Over time standards will be set and future road building will incorporate those standards. 100 years ago people were still mainly using horse and car with cars mainly for the rich. roads and systems were not developed anything like they are now for modern traffic, so the budget is there, its just spread over decades and you won't notice it, it will slowly change with time.


20 years ago, was 2004, we didn't have smart phone, tablets, computers built into watches. we didn't have a fraction of the technology we have now and the most advanced computers back then would not hold up to a wrist watch these days, so where will we be in 20 years time with technology ?


People frequently drive over the speed limit in and out of fog and pay little attention to what's going on around them, hence why we still have so many accidents on the road.

You're relying on infrastructure changes to make it work.

The level of infrastructure change required it would be significantly cheaper and easier to build a functional rail network with small light rental car or bike to travel a few miles to a station hop on to vehicle that won't kill you while you look at your laptop and rent another little shuttle vehicle at the other end.

Yes HS2 has been an unmitigated disaster...but that kinda proves why the changes required are not going to happen.

The inattentive drivers will be more inattentive because now they have the false confidence of self drive. So there will be fewer low speed none-lethal fenderbenders perhaps. The accidents that do happen when they fail to notice the self driving car hasn't noticed a (insert any slightly unexpected situation) ...are going to be much bigger with more opportunity for fatality because as they won't be looking out of the window...they won't brake.

 

[The Panda Nut]

When I drive, I adjust my position and speed for both what I can see, and what I anticipate. I may accelerate at maximum speed to avoid a collision or brake, or neither. I anticipate based on other cars position and behaviour, maybe influenced a bit by car type, model and driver. Sex, age head gear etc nearly ad infinitum. I am aware of school times, and hospitals, can react to queues waiting to turn ahead and can recognize animals likely to imoede. I also know the roads in much of tye UK and some routes in Europe. I know where water lies, where heges overhang tge roads, where fog and frost pockets are, and may be expected. I use the under over round and through practices. I can see when a farn vehicle will emerge in front of me becayse it cannot stop once its started, and reams of otger things like birds in the road or flying off indicating a vehicle or not.Touch wood its worked. Do I trust autonated systems to do more than 20% of this? No. Are they safer than me? No. They may react in tge ibstant faster than I can. So, I alrwady have secondary autononous braking for city driving. IF THEY USED AN INCREMENTAL APPROACH, maybe in the end theyvwill be better. I wont live to endure it, thank heaven.

 

[The Panda Nut]

do you remember when we put people in metal tubes and sent them into the air for the first time ? then despite many of those metal tubes crashing into the ground we strapped jet engines on to those metal tubes and sent more people flying through the air even faster and crashing even more spectacularly.....

Collateral damage??

We now have the safest aviation industry there has ever been, despite boeings efforts to change that.

same with cars, you had to have a man walking with a red flag in front of them, women were not allowed to travel in cars because their disposition would not cope it was claimed you would die if you went above 40 mph. etc etc.

if we went back 100 years we could probably be having this argument over cars replacing horses, or a couple of hundred years we'd be talking about how dangerous steam engines are.

the biggest cause of accidents in any industry is people people make mistakes or do stupid things and this causes accidents, take the person out of the equation and you increase safety.

Nope. I dont remember. Even I'm not that old. Lol

I do seem to have read about people voluntarily wanting to fly and killing themselves in flying machines which they made themselves. They didnt fly round residential areas at head height though.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

You're relying on infrastructure changes to make it work.

The level of infrastructure change required it would be significantly cheaper and easier to build a functional rail network with small light rental car or bike to travel a few miles to a station hop on to vehicle that won't kill you while you look at your laptop and rent another little shuttle vehicle at the other end.

Yes HS2 has been an unmitigated disaster...but that kinda proves why the changes required are not going to happen.

The inattentive drivers will be more inattentive because now they have the false confidence of self drive. So there will be fewer low speed none-lethal fenderbenders perhaps. The accidents that do happen when they fail to notice the self driving car hasn't noticed a (insert any slightly unexpected situation) ...are going to be much bigger with more opportunity for fatality because as they won't be looking out of the window...they won't brake.

Just to be clear here, I am not relying on anything.

I am mealy stating that not everything is black and white. Just because someone has an idea doesn't mean it's good or bad, and there have been countless times in the past where as a species we have transitioned and advanced out technology and improved our quality of life.

You know what? maybe driverless cars will not work and that will be a disaster, but you cannot say with the technology we have at this time, that self driving has been explored fully and that it can never work and we should just give up.

What we have now are some pretty normal cars with some camera to sometimes stop you bumping in to things, probably no more intelligent than your average pigeon, certainly not on par with human intelligence and ability.

But that is not to say that one day we may have cars with no steering wheel, no pedals and you just get in and tell it where you want to go and it takes you, that is not where we are yet, it is possibly achievable and we should continue to explore these things.

Something which may be likely before we have autonomous cars is autonomous aircraft that you can hop in in one city and it will wiz you quickly and quietly to the next city.

 

[vexorg]

We live in a country where filling a pothole in is a scientific impossibility.

Administrative, not scientific. Our council admin structures are a wonder to behold in all there stupidity

do you remember when we put people in metal tubes and sent them into the air for the first time ? then despite many of those metal tubes crashing into the ground we strapped jet engines on to those metal tubes and sent more people flying through the air even faster and crashing even more spectacularly.....

There were a lot of test flights, and very few members of the public were stuck in there during trials or incomplete systems.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

How does that differ from getting the bus or train to work?

Door to door for a start - which I think is an important factor for many. Also you can divert via the supermarlet on the way home when your Mrs has rung to say "we're low on milk, bread or whatever."

 

[vexorg]

Door to door for a start - which I think is an important factor for many. Also you can divert via the supermarlet on the way home when your Mrs has rung to say "we're low on milk, bread or whatever."

No.... just eat or amazon will sent a drone out with shopping items like that!!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Door to door for a start - which I think is an important factor for many. Also you can divert via the supermarlet on the way home when your Mrs has rung to say "we're low on milk, bread or whatever."

Well, when you gethome without the goods, remember I warned you it would all come to no good.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Clearly no one cares, no one has anything to say on the subject


sunak and Farrije for P.M. of NEW coalition to sort it all out.

 

[vexorg]

Clearly no one cares, no one has anything to say on the subject

Dont care, and currently planning to spoil the ballot paper to no good option that I'd want to vote for.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Administrative, not scientific. Our council admin structures are a wonder to behold in all there stupidity


There were a lot of test flights, and very few members of the public were stuck in there during trials or incomplete systems.

May be, just may be because of the human at the steering wheel

Clearly no one cares, no one has anything to say on the subject


sunak and Farrije for P.M. of NEW coalition to sort it all out.

Ah I was thinking of autonomous vehicles...

 

[StevenRB45]

There were a lot of test flights, and very few members of the public were stuck in there during trials or incomplete systems.

Perhaps they thought better of conducting them on the ground in a town centre..