What's made you grumpy today?

[The Panda Nut]

See and hear what you say Andy .....

I quite like the handle bar ride. Makes a change, get to see other motor vehicles, roads, countryside etc.

Well you may react to "treasonous" and possibly you are right. That said going back to M.Thatcher days the one thing I think she got wrong (with good intent) was to denationalise our energy and transport. We buy energy from EDF, a French National company when we were fully self sufficient.

We also sold off a large portion of our North Sea Oil and Gas rights quite a few years ago. It now looks like we dumped pretty much of the last we had to Russia and Putin.

I'm not sure what you say this guy "got a lot of things wrong"? Some examples would help.

I'm not sure I agree with all this guy said but that is why I said "watch all of it". Even if only a small part of his facts/opinions are correct I think we can all see the long term trend on many of the items he raises. (Like no EV charging for people in terraced houses with only road parking ........) Also the road tax revenue decline has to be addressed. Also why should petrol vehicle drivers pay 60%+ tax whilst EV only 20%. (RAC want 5%). So long term 20% has to go to 60% just to maintain the status quo and gov income. I think those of us with a brain know that this will inevitably have to happen but what really pisses me off is that we sell off our natural resources rights (with green agenda) knowing quite well this is just short term carbon trading that does nothing really green and puts us at the mercy of the like of Putin and to lesser extent Arab producers who just loved our withdrawal from our own natural resources.

But like I said I don't normally enter into the political/policy arena and only posted this guy's link because there are elements of worrying facts. No I have not yet followed up on the RAC and Press information he references but I'm sure were he wrong and misquoting the RAC etc then he would have been challenged by now.

Anyway, this is my view, and I'll not follow-up any further for the sake of Forum harmony

My daughter could get a good lease deal via NHS for an electric vehicle but cannot charge it at home. Just as well as I hear it may be more expensive to charge rather than fuel an ICE car from October. Not sure about that yet. SHe doesnt want the considerably more expensive ICE cars offered on teh lease scheme so the Leo soldiers on in its 23r Year.

I think the issue is that travelling needs to be reduced as it makes no difference whether electrical or oil powered until we have the vast majority of renewable electricity generation. When we do travel we need lower powred vehicles for a raft of reasons and less mindless use of power and speed. WHy o why do we need 750hp and equivalent vehicles. In 1980 I had a 2 litre car wjith 100HP it was considered powerful and fast in its time and was by any standard enough yet today its just power and change for the sake of it.

My parents made do and mendid and I have still their carving knife biught over 70 yeasr ago. It still does a job but its been sharpened to the extent that one day it will be worn out. We need much much more of this and reduced consumerism.

I for one would rather be cold, VERY COLD than buy from Putin.

Why do the majority so often let people with no brains, beauty or wit get into power and wreck the world for the majority. I know you would need to be a Tory to answer that one.

 

[s130]

My daughter could get a good lease deal via NHS for an electric vehicle but cannot charge it at home. Just as well as I hear it may be more expensive to charge rather than fuel an ICE car from October. Not sure about that yet. SHe doesnt want the considerably more expensive ICE cars offered on teh lease scheme so the Leo soldiers on in its 23r Year.

I think the issue is that travelling needs to be reduced as it makes no difference whether electrical or oil powered until we have the vast majority of renewable electricity generation. When we do travel we need lower powred vehicles for a raft of reasons and less mindless use of power and speed. WHy o why do we need 750hp and equivalent vehicles. In 1980 I had a 2 litre car wjith 100HP it was considered powerful and fast in its time and was by any standard enough yet today its just power and change for the sake of it.

My parents made do and mendid and I have still their carving knife biught over 70 yeasr ago. It still does a job but its been sharpened to the extent that one day it will be worn out. We need much much more of this and reduced consumerism.

I for one would rather be cold, VERY COLD than buy from Putin.

Why do the majority so often let people with no brains, beauty or wit get into power and wreck the world for the majority. I know you would need to be a Tory to answer that one.

Well I'll address one aspect of your post and that is this insane "need for power" ... not big pistons but macho big balls .....

I had a lovely Tipo 1.6ie with some 70-80BHP. It drove well and towed a 1000kg caravan/trailer quite well.

I had a lovely Uno SX (67 BHP - 46 at the wheels) and I could lap Goodwood just shy of 80MPH average putting many more powerful vehicles to shame. All my Uno had was stock engine, and Uno SACHS suspension kit, (and here I add modestly confirmed by others with race drive offers) a little talent and self and vehicle preservation behind the wheel.

I have never understood why (mainly men) want and demand more engine power than they could ever safely and competently use.

You go and ask any motorsport competitor (race or just experienced track day/sprinting) in the lower ranks with small engines, no power, etc. and they will also tell you and show you that their little and humble set of wheels will basically (in comparison) **** all over other so called beasts!

If there any psychology students in medical school tuning in here then I guess you now have a lovely subject to research

 

[StevenRB45]

I must have been replying as you replied lol

Yes these are the sort of prices I was already aware of, still getting all VW parts, at a VW specialists, actually knowing the ones that work at the dealerships they can be kids working their dues to build their knowledge where as the independent ‘insert dealer here’ specialists tent to be ex master techs who are fed up with doing a half arsed job to cut corners and costs at the dealerships.

I remember the quote was £900-something certainly a saving of a few hundred over dealerships price

Not sure I could stomach driving away from the dealer having dropped 1200 off and the car being exactly the same. 900 would still sting..but given I paid 870 last month (timing belt and inlet valve clean) and it's booked in for a service this month...I can't be too disparaging! At least that came with free shock absorbers for the front..

Well I'll address one aspect of your post and that is this insane "need for power" ... not big pistons but macho big balls .....

I had a lovely Tipo 1.6ie with some 70-80BHP. It drove well and towed a 1000kg caravan/trailer quite well.

I had a lovely Uno SX (67 BHP - 46 at the wheels) and I could lap Goodwood just shy of 80MPH average putting many more powerful vehicles to shame. All my Uno had was stock engine, and Uno SACHS suspension kit, (and here I add modestly confirmed by others with race drive offers) a little talent and self and vehicle preservation behind the wheel.

I have never understood why (mainly men) want and demand more engine power than they could ever safely and competently use.

You go and ask any motorsport competitor (race or just experienced track day/sprinting) in the lower ranks with small engines, no power, etc. and they will also tell you and show you that their little and humble set of wheels will basically (in comparison) **** all over other so called beasts!

If there any psychology students in medical school tuning in here then I guess you now have a lovely subject to research

I do think there's a minimum amount of power for easy use on the road.

Having suffered an 82bhp C3 recently more than it..but less than our 108bhp which is mk1 Golf GTi fast.

In theory the 82 should be entirely respectable, in practice stick 4 people in it and the lack of torque means you're driving it flat out. Lower it, stick a set of sticky tyres on it and it would probably be capable of pretty ridiculous speed with enough commitment.

But drive that hard to keep up with traffic and your passengers will think you're a sociopath. So having a bit in hand to keep up with the flow of traffic makes things a bit more relaxed for all concerned, momentum conservation etc becomes less important.

Safe overtaking as well does require the car not to be pretty much flat out unless you've got room and sightlines for days.

Don't agree with the whole pistonheads schtick of "200bhp is dangerously slow!" but a little bit of spare power and torque doesn't go amiss.

 

[AndyRKett]

My daughter could get a good lease deal via NHS for an electric vehicle but cannot charge it at home. Just as well as I hear it may be more expensive to charge rather than fuel an ICE car from October. Not sure about that yet. SHe doesnt want the considerably more expensive ICE cars offered on teh lease scheme so the Leo soldiers on in its 23r Year.

I think the issue is that travelling needs to be reduced as it makes no difference whether electrical or oil powered until we have the vast majority of renewable electricity generation. When we do travel we need lower powred vehicles for a raft of reasons and less mindless use of power and speed. WHy o why do we need 750hp and equivalent vehicles. In 1980 I had a 2 litre car wjith 100HP it was considered powerful and fast in its time and was by any standard enough yet today its just power and change for the sake of it.

My parents made do and mendid and I have still their carving knife biught over 70 yeasr ago. It still does a job but its been sharpened to the extent that one day it will be worn out. We need much much more of this and reduced consumerism.

I for one would rather be cold, VERY COLD than buy from Putin.

Why do the majority so often let people with no brains, beauty or wit get into power and wreck the world for the majority. I know you would need to be a Tory to answer that one.

Electric cars have already caused a major **** in the industry, they are so expensive to make and sell yet people are still prepared to buy them. The result seems to be a steep increase in the cost of all new cars (even before the effects of covid) in the future I see that electric car owners will only be so because their funds and housing choices make it the sensible buy. So those without parking will either have to pay the public charge point premiums or go without. It probably already is to some degree but going electric will become a massive status symbol

In my view the real key is going to be reducing travel and while not every job lends itself to it, working from home is and should be the future, we genuinely don’t need millions of people driving 10 miles down the road sitting in traffic for an hour to sit at a computer they could have been sitting at in their living room an hour earlier without creating all that extra co2 and pollution. Then the rest who have to travel for work can actually move without having to deal with office zombies on the road

 

[s130]

I do think there's a minimum amount of power for easy use on the road.

Having suffered an 82bhp C3 recently more than it..but less than our 108bhp which is mk1 Golf GTi fast.

In theory the 82 should be entirely respectable, in practice stick 4 people in it and the lack of torque means you're driving it flat out. Lower it, stick a set of sticky tyres on it and it would probably be capable of pretty ridiculous speed with enough commitment.

But drive that hard to keep up with traffic and your passengers will think you're a sociopath. So having a bit in hand to keep up with the flow of traffic makes things a bit more relaxed for all concerned, momentum conservation etc becomes less important.

Safe overtaking as well does require the car not to be pretty much flat out unless you've got room and sightlines for days.

Don't agree with the whole pistonheads schtick of "200bhp is dangerously slow!" but a little bit of spare power and torque doesn't go amiss.

Indeed there is a sensible and lower limit to what is what one would consider acceptable for safe road use. My 500X has 140BHP, the 130TC has 130BHP, both with excellent torque. There is that overall balance depending on size and weight of car, passengers, load etc. and of course the road.

In Germany a big heavy Merc with passengers wanting to cruise at 130MPH will require a bigger more powerful engine. A small city car is at the other end of the scale.

I also appreciate "tuners" wanting to try and extract every bit of performance out of any given engine for track and competitive sport. Also some just enjoy the "tuning challenge" but these are special cases.

You only have to drive round after an illegal car road meet to see the bent railings, posts etc because people just can't handle their cars but they still want more power. That is what is so crazy. Trying to run before they can walk.

 

[vexorg]

If we assume Tesla is what's being got at for the insane power of the electric cars. It's obvious why they do it, aside from status symbol, the price is competing wiht very high performance petrol cars. If the cost doesn't justify some benefit over the petrol car then what's the point?

The green argument doesn't work, we have a lot of renewables in the UK, and that seems to have zero impact on the engery crisis.

As for more powerful cars, they are easier to drive, and safer in general if you have the side by side with the small low powered car. Better brakes, suspension, tyres, handling. Clarkson summed it up perfectly when following a prius that was going flat out round a track in an M3, and the M3 was pretty much just pottering behind not stressed in the least.

And there's no worse feeling jumping from a powerful car to an underpowered little car and putting your foot down to pull away at a juncion or overtake and you're left with a "why am I not moving" feeling.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Not sure I could stomach driving away from the dealer having dropped 1200 off and the car being exactly the same. 900 would still sting..but given I paid 870 last month (timing belt and inlet valve clean) and it's booked in for a service this month...I can't be too disparaging! At least that came with free shock absorbers for the front..


I do think there's a minimum amount of power for easy use on the road.

Having suffered an 82bhp C3 recently more than it..but less than our 108bhp which is mk1 Golf GTi fast.

In theory the 82 should be entirely respectable, in practice stick 4 people in it and the lack of torque means you're driving it flat out. Lower it, stick a set of sticky tyres on it and it would probably be capable of pretty ridiculous speed with enough commitment.

But drive that hard to keep up with traffic and your passengers will think you're a sociopath. So having a bit in hand to keep up with the flow of traffic makes things a bit more relaxed for all concerned, momentum conservation etc becomes less important.

Safe overtaking as well does require the car not to be pretty much flat out unless you've got room and sightlines for days.

Don't agree with the whole pistonheads schtick of "200bhp is dangerously slow!" but a little bit of spare power and torque doesn't go amiss.

I agree, but theres also a distinct limit as to what speeds are reasonable and indeed possible with current traffic levels and my Panda TA 85 is well capable of overtaking lorries with surprising ease it will cart three and the dog packed to the roof and keep up with traffic. It continues to amaze in this respect. Bigger vehicles need more torque not so much a lot more bhp. But we need to get real though if we want our world to have a slim chance of continuity and start to getting rid of the super powered behemoths now. Most of the time we dont need them for everyday use at all. It will take years to reduce the numbers if a ban on excess power were introduced today. This a blindingly obvious and necessary hit in terms of the environment. And im not holding up the twinair as a model of efficiency, but its hugely better than the majority of cars overall! Power wise ample unless towing a horsebox etc. It seems we are moving transport, but not in a direction that has any future for sustainable mass transport. Tunnel vision seems to be ruling rather than a reasoned view We need a wide rangeof power sources to include things other than battery power. Power use needs to be minimised. If people want to go fast, get a train! The future must be in a range of fuels to suit various applications and needs. Seeing a BMW driven at a normal speed is sadly a rarity. It is more common than used to be gladly. I have had a lengthy discussion with Kent police about the specifics of speeding vehicles and one of their number agreed 100% that its the high powered german cars that are the majority of the offenders. That officer told me he had been effectively silenced from repeating his view in their in house rag, that concurred with mine, by pressure from above due to direct pressure from lawyers representing the manufacturers leaning on his force! I despise the fact that they are able to do this while continuing the pursuit of vehicle sales that are unethical immoral and pointless as well as killing the environment at an unsustainable level. I was protesting to them regarding a BMW M3 being driven in heavy traffic on the M20 at a speed I estimated (by noting distance travelled and time it took to disappear) at c 160mph. Unfortunately my dash cam was too poor to get the number plate due to the speed in spite of its being submitted for enhancement. While my rant is mainly environmental I dont want to be in an accident or should Im say unnecessary collison with some mug driving a car at that sort of speed. As has been said here the huge power is not anything to do with need or efficiency. Like many I sometimes think a nice V8 Jag would be nice, but keep coming back to the issues that ought to rule. 1 Environmental disaster areas are imoral, and 2 Driven with any degree of consideration for the safety of other road users in current conditions it would be pointless. 3 Its highly unlikely I would enjoy driving one any more than I do the Panda. Case closed. All other cars should be Panderised or recycled for remanufacture into Pandas. We might allow some form of bigger Pandas and some PAnda vans and HGV's but thats it. They would all be effieient and not over powered for imoral high speed use. Pandas on the top.

 

[s130]

And there's no worse feeling jumping from a powerful car to an underpowered little car and putting your foot down to pull away at a juncion or overtake and you're left with a "why am I not moving" feeling.

I think we can all appreciate power and performance. The difference is those of us who do and know how to safely use it vs those who must have but can't safely use what they already have. That is what I'm driving. The crazy lust for something they cannot control. I've seen too many idiots trash their cars on track days, or street meets and then claim there was a technical problem, eg. stuck throttle.

The only technical problem was/is "the loose nut behind the steering wheel".

 

[vexorg]

Those are issues with people, not the cars.

 

[Rocinante]

The green argument doesn't work, we have a lot of renewables in the UK, and that seems to have zero impact on the energy crisis.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "a lot". Last official figures I can see from 2020 had renewables supplying 43.2% of the electricity, I'll throw in Nuclear which takes it up to 59.3%. That still leaves 40.7% of electricity generated in the UK, needing fossil fuels, mainly gas. That is still a lot of gas, before you even consider the gas we use for heating.
So I would expect the high price of gas to have an impact on energy prices.
For comparison France has 7.1% fossil fuels in their electricity production

 

[Cheest]

I'm guessing that there were just minor wrist slaps from the loader and wall incident. Long drawn out sjgh.

Said that because one of the drones called me yesterday telling me they had an issue where the engine stalls whenever they use a certain hydraulic function. I told them they had a check valve backwards or a hose crossed somewhere in the circuit. The drone asked me where to look. "You know what? I'm a thousand miles away from the machine YOU built. I told YOU the cause of the problem. YOU need to find where YOU did the eff up, not me."

I did my job and 'Advised'.

 

[vexorg]

So I would expect the high price of gas to have an impact on energy prices.

Some impact yes, but the energy cap price is set on wholesale gas prices, regardless how much renewable is on the network.

 

[Rocinante]

Some impact yes, but the energy cap price is set on wholesale gas prices, regardless how much renewable is on the network.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude, it's probably me, but I have no idea what point you are trying to make. This statement has just confused me. Think we're deviating from the point of this thread anyway.

 

[AndyRKett]

Not sure I could stomach driving away from the dealer having dropped 1200 off and the car being exactly the same. 900 would still sting..but given I paid 870 last month (timing belt and inlet valve clean) and it's booked in for a service this month...I can't be too disparaging! At least that came with free shock absorbers for the front..

The car is back and the damage is in £980 all in that’s a full major service with all very parts and fluids, new water pump and cambelt pulleys and so forth, parts came in at just under £400 and labour at just over £400 then there was vat and the MOT which it passed as well with an advisory on the 7 year old back brakes being worn.

The most interesting thing and part of the reason the bill was so expensive is that a normally £40 water pump on this car is actually computer controlled and features an electronic solenoid to shut of the flow of the water when it’s not needed, basically the engines run so cold now that the water pump can be electronically turned off, he showed me the pump basically a mechanical sleeve moves forward and blocks the water getting to the impeller but the pump is always turning and should the solenoid fail there is a big spring that will pull the sleeve out of the way.

Anyway that water pump is over £110 which for a genuine very part is actually pretty reasonable

 

[vexorg]

I'm honestly not trying to be rude, it's probably me, but I have no idea what point you are trying to make. This statement has just confused me. Think we're deviating from the point of this thread anyway.

The point raised above was that they aren't green because the still use fossil fuel to charge them. My point was that given that all our green renewables in the UK have next to no affect ot he pricing of energy then it's questionable whether charging and an electric car has any enviromental benefit at all.

(and dont worry, you dont sound smart enough to be rude to me)

 

[StevenRB45]

The most interesting thing and part of the reason the bill was so expensive is that a normally £40 water pump on this car is actually computer controlled and features an electronic solenoid to shut of the flow of the water when it’s not needed, basically the engines run so cold now that the water pump can be electronically turned off, he showed me the pump basically a mechanical sleeve moves forward and blocks the water getting to the impeller but the pump is always turning and should the solenoid fail there is a big spring that will pull the sleeve out of the way.

Anyway that water pump is over £110 which for a genuine very part is actually pretty reasonable

Think that's a fairly common thing these days, I don't think ours is in the pump, seem to recall it runs a short coolant circuit that bypasses the radiator entirely until operating temperature is reached.

Think they were pretty much required to get the cold start performance for emissions testing for euro 6. Same reason you
tend to see the cat pretty bolted directly to turbo.

I agree, but theres also a distinct limit as to what speeds are reasonable and indeed possible with current traffic levels and my Panda TA 85 is well capable of overtaking lorries with surprising ease it will cart three and the dog packed to the roof and keep up with traffic. It continues to amaze in this respect. Bigger vehicles need more torque not so much a lot more bhp.

The turbo is what will be making the difference, in a small light car the torque is a lovely thing it gives it that little bit of stoutness needed to overcome passengers and cargo.

Had a history of NA cars most of which were superminis and my main gripe was always while they felt nippy enough when driven hard. When you didn't want to wind it right out to chase that last bhp...they felt dog slow as peak power and torque were way above the level of noise and obvious effort you'd want to expend to access them.

With the turbo the headline figures are slightly higher for bhp but torque figures in some cases are nearly double for the same engine running NA. So when you're not at peak..it still goes without getting abusive.




In other news... Rip Queen Elizabeth.

 

[The Panda Nut]

In other news... Rip Queen Elizabeth.

My third Grandmother. I agree totally. Possibly the most important peace maker of the last centuary and it feels like the corner stone of the nation. She said she would serve and I think she lived up to that aim. Her value to the UK in terms of her commonwealth engagement and foreign affairs will be very sadly missed.

 

[AndyRKett]

Think that's a fairly common thing these days, I don't think ours is in the pump, seem to recall it runs a short coolant circuit that bypasses the radiator entirely until operating temperature is reached.

Think they were pretty much required to get the cold start performance for emissions testing for euro 6. Same reason you
tend to see the cat pretty bolted directly to turbo.

To be fair all cars run a short coolant circuit when the thermostat closes I’ve never known a car to completely turn off the flow of coolant by the pump, normally you still circulate some coolant to stop hot spots developing certainly in petrol cars it’s important to keep the head cool and from warping like the old fire engines were renowned for when the water pump failed

 

[StevenRB45]

To be fair all cars run a short coolant circuit when the thermostat closes I’ve never known a car to completely turn off the flow of coolant by the pump, normally you still circulate some coolant to stop hot spots developing certainly in petrol cars it’s important to keep the head cool and from warping like the old fire engines were renowned for when the water pump failed

It's been a while since I've looked this crap up..it's unfortunately been replaced by less useful information about Microsoft Excel probably.

If memory serves the short route goes via the front of the cylinder head which is integrated with the exhaust manifold. So it's not just no radiator it's literally scavenging exhaust heat back into the engine via the coolant. Or that could be a different car entirely..

Believe VW have a similar set up in their more recent petrol cars. Neglect a modern petrol cooling system at your tbf..low coolant volume to heat up quickly and turbo egts..all you need for a nice barbecue.

 

[AndyRKett]

It's been a while since I've looked this crap up..it's unfortunately been replaced by less useful information about Microsoft Excel probably.

If memory serves the short route goes via the front of the cylinder head which is integrated with the exhaust manifold. So it's not just no radiator it's literally scavenging exhaust heat back into the engine via the coolant. Or that could be a different car entirely..

Believe VW have a similar set up in their more recent petrol cars. Neglect a modern petrol cooling system at your tbf..low coolant volume to heat up quickly and turbo egts..all you need for a nice barbecue.

I think what you’re referring too is where they incorporated the manifold and coolant channels together to bring down exhaust temperatures for some exhaust gas benefit ? I must admit I remember reading about it on the new tiny vw engines a few years back as a new technology but like you have probably replaced the knowledge with something more useful day to day