Volkswagen emissions scandal

[306maxi]

Now if only someone worked for a car manufacturer and regularly had meetings about emissions standards and stuff :facepalm:

People in here are acting hastily. VW didn’t cheat because it was impossible to meet emissions standards.

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/832463/diesel-engine-uk-cars-emissions

VW cheated because they wanted engines that were more powerful and economical than engines with software that didn’t cheat.

The standards are very much achievable, VW just wanted a performance advantage over anyone that was sticking to the standards. Simple as that.

The ‘Italian tuneup’ isn’t needed if you do enough mileage. I think people might be surprised what ‘enough’ is though...

On the temperature dial on my 3 series the temp the engine gets to on a run is 100°. In the winter it only does this after about 20 miles from cold. My car has only ever really done long runs as it’s up to 135k miles after 4 years of life. No issues with the DPF, no need for an Italian tuneup, no need to take it for a run just because of the DPF. My point is that unless you’re doing at least 15-20 miles each way each day you’re unlikely to ever get the DPF doing what it does best.

 

[306maxi]

As for customers caring, lots will.

Sales reps and execs are still going to get diesels. Hopefully the drop in sales is the people who don’t suit diesel realising that it’s not for everybody. I never wanted a diesel again, but needs must. My next car will either be electric or Diesel, I don’t fancy bankruptcy.

 

[StevenRB45]

Going back to VW.

What is quite amusing is that using a knowledge of how VWs LNT technology worked you can figure out what they did to "fix" it and why it's just another lie that the EGR failures that follow are unrelated.

It works by putting a fuel mist through the trap..people who've had the recall done complain of reduced fuel economy. Also EGR is required to reduce nox levels..what happens when you suddenly increase the usage of cheaply made component to far above the design parameters (let us not forget these cars were only ever designed to be compliant on rollers)? Fix Fail happens. Oh and the reduced performance people complain of? That'll be the EGR gases replacing oxygen in the combustion chamber so the mixture is less potent.

The final cherry on the poo cake is that the increased fueling to the system gives more soot so the effected cars are far more likely to suffer a DPF failure.

That's some quality engineering.

 

[SB1500]

I really don't believe that Diesels are cheaper to run either. The fuel in general costs more at the pump from what I can see. But even if the car goes further on the same £ spent on fuel, it's totally offset by the costs of buying a new diesel car (easily a few thousand more on most mainstream cars), more expensive engine repairs due to the parts needed for the heavier, high pressured and turbocharged system - (looking at VW's TDI and it's very prone to clogging and losing turbo power as it ages).. The running costs go beyond the petrol pump.

I conclude that lower running costs are a myth when it comes to diesel because of the nature of the repairs when they're needed costing so much more. Some will argue that because they like to burn money trading in for a brand new car every three years it doesn't apply to them.. but they're already losing a tonne of money in doing that! In reality, most people where I live tend to buy their cars a few years old, keep em until they're in and around 10 years old (regular repair territory) so the cost of the repairs being more are definitely a real world concern.

More money to buy new vs. petrol models.
More money to buy parts for to repair vs. petrol models.
More complex parts to go wrong vs many petrol cars (turbo system, DPF deletes)


Everybody I know with TDI cars that had DPF issues only got peace when they went and paid some dodgy mechanic to delete them from the car altogether!

 

[SB1500]

I really don't believe that Diesels are cheaper to run either. The fuel in general costs more at the pump from what I can see. But even if the car goes further on the same £ spent on fuel, it's totally offset by the costs of buying a new diesel car (easily a few thousand more on most mainstream cars), more expensive engine repairs due to the parts needed for the heavier, high pressured and turbocharged system - (looking at VW's TDI and it's very prone to clogging and losing turbo power as it ages).. The running costs go beyond the petrol pump.

I conclude that lower running costs are a myth when it comes to diesel because of the nature of the repairs when they're needed costing so much more. Some will argue that because they like to burn money trading in for a brand new car every three years it doesn't apply to them.. but they're already losing a tonne of money in doing that! In reality, most people where I live tend to buy their cars a few years old, keep em until they're in and around 10 years old (regular repair territory) so the cost of the repairs being more are definitely a real world concern.

More money to buy new vs. petrol models.
More money to buy parts for to repair vs. petrol models.
More complex parts to go wrong vs many petrol cars (turbo system, DPF deletes)


Everybody I know with TDI cars that had DPF issues only got peace when they went and paid some dodgy mechanic to delete them from the car altogether!

* apologies if this reply veers the thread off topic, but was replying to someone who was replying to me if that makes sense *

 

[306maxi]

I think we need to separate the two issues here.

The system was obviously designed to work in a certain (non-compliant) manner and it worked well. Ask the engine to do something it wasn’t designed to do and of course it’s going to have issues.

At work we’d call this a concept issue. Like say... styling want wheels which are too big and make the ride choppier than people would like.

It’s not poor engineering per se, engineering have been told to do the wrong thing and have done it as best they can. If the new engine mapping causes more pressure on the EGR, but the mileage cars never ran this calibration then they were never going to exhibit this failure mode and there was never going to be a need to improve the EGR design.

Can you tell I work in engineering? ?

 

[306maxi]

I really don't believe that Diesels are cheaper to run either. The fuel in general costs more at the pump from what I can see. But even if the car goes further on the same £ spent on fuel, it's totally offset by the costs of buying a new diesel car (easily a few thousand more on most mainstream cars), more expensive engine repairs due to the parts needed for the heavier, high pressured and turbocharged system - (looking at VW's TDI and it's very prone to clogging and losing turbo power as it ages).. The running costs go beyond the petrol pump.

I conclude that lower running costs are a myth when it comes to diesel because of the nature of the repairs when they're needed costing so much more. Some will argue that because they like to burn money trading in for a brand new car every three years it doesn't apply to them.. but they're already losing a tonne of money in doing that! In reality, most people where I live tend to buy their cars a few years old, keep em until they're in and around 10 years old (regular repair territory) so the cost of the repairs being more are definitely a real world concern.

More money to buy new vs. petrol models.
More money to buy parts for to repair vs. petrol models.
More complex parts to go wrong vs many petrol cars (turbo system, DPF deletes)


Everybody I know with TDI cars that had DPF issues only got peace when they went and paid some dodgy mechanic to delete them from the car altogether!

Have you ever actually owned a Diesel?

You’re completely crackers, out there in the real world pretty much every petrol is going turbocharged. Only the very low end of the market and the very top end of the market are staying with normally aspirated engines, the bottom end because it’s cheaper and the top end because people buying top end cars rather like the throttle response you get with a normally aspirated engine.

You do also realise that because everyone is going direct injection, petrol cars are going to start needing particulate filters to meet emissions standards.

Your whole argument comes from owning a Panda and reading what the media are saying this week.

 

[SB1500]

Have you ever actually owned a Diesel?

You’re completely crackers, out there in the real world pretty much every petrol is going turbocharged. Only the very low end of the market and the very top end of the market are staying with normally aspirated engines, the bottom end because it’s cheaper and the top end because people buying top end cars rather like the throttle response you get with a normally aspirated engine.

You do also realise that because everyone is going direct injection, petrol cars are going to start needing particulate filters to meet emissions standards.

Your whole argument comes from owning a Panda and reading what the media are saying this week.

Why would I own one when I clearly, personally don't believe in them on a number of levels? The answer is no. So I await your 'doesn't own one, opinion doesn't matter' response... but in fact it still has some value whether you like it or not.

A lot of people in my family own diesels and their experience is very much part of reality.

Most cars below £20,000 have non turbocharged petrol options and are still the mainstream. Yes there's the likes of the TwinAir / Ecoboost etc that are turbo but they're still premium options and have their own issues.

Owning a Panda has nothing to do with it? I actually watched the Budget and have to learn quite a bit about tax and finance hence why I particularly paid some attention to the news of the Diesel tax increases.. There's many parts of tax I'm sure I could quote and try to make your opinions and knowledge look poor and insignificant but I'm not here to demean anyone or act like a know-it-all - regardless of whether or not I agree.. anyway.

There are a LOT of mainstream cars in the UK with naturally aspirated petrols.
I don't see too many Petrol direct injection Panda's or Ford Focusses yet.
And my opinions on diesel do not relate to my Panda as such?

 

[StevenRB45]

I think we need to separate the two issues here.

The system was obviously designed to work in a certain (non-compliant) manner and it worked well. Ask the engine to do something it wasn’t designed to do and of course it’s going to have issues.

At work we’d call this a concept issue. Like say... styling want wheels which are too big and make the ride choppier than people would like.

It’s not poor engineering per se, engineering have been told to do the wrong thing and have done it as best they can. If the new engine mapping causes more pressure on the EGR, but the mileage cars never ran this calibration then they were never going to exhibit this failure mode and there was never going to be a need to improve the EGR design.

Can you tell I work in engineering? ?

Totally agree it was a thing of engineering beauty, like Toyotas adjustable restrictor in world rallying. However the components it's made of cannot perform the task they have because they were never designed to. Pretending a simple software fix will sort it or that it was only the work of a few people in the company is hilarious.

 

[306maxi]

Why would I own one when I clearly, personally don't believe in them on a number of levels? The answer is no. So I await your 'doesn't own one, opinion doesn't matter' response... but in fact it still has some value whether you like it or not.

A lot of people in my family own diesels and their experience is very much part of reality.

Most cars below £20,000 have non turbocharged petrol options and are still the mainstream. Yes there's the likes of the TwinAir / Ecoboost etc that are turbo but they're still premium options and have their own issues.

Owning a Panda has nothing to do with it? I actually watched the Budget and have to learn quite a bit about tax and finance hence why I particularly paid some attention to the news of the Diesel tax increases.. There's many parts of tax I'm sure I could quote and try to make your opinions and knowledge look poor and insignificant but I'm not here to demean anyone or act like a know-it-all - regardless of whether or not I agree.. anyway.

There are a LOT of mainstream cars in the UK with naturally aspirated petrols.
I don't see too many Petrol direct injection Panda's or Ford Focusses yet.
And my opinions on diesel do not relate to my Panda as such?

Ah come on, quote this great knowledge of tax that will make my knowledge look poor and insignificant.

I’m surprised that someone who is obviously such a maestro when it comes to tax is bothering themselves on a fiat forum on a Sunday night.

Find me a car that will do as near as makes no difference to 70mpg and so far has only cost me just under £200 in servicing and whatever a pair of Michelin wipers from Costco costs... oh and it needs to be as big and spacious as my current car. I’m not doing 105 miles a day in a Panda, did that for a week or two, not doing it again.

I’ll be sitting up waiting for your reply.

 

[306maxi]

Totally agree it was a thing of engineering beauty, like Toyotas adjustable restrictor in world rallying. However the components it's made of cannot perform the task they have because they were never designed to. Pretending a simple software fix will sort it or that it was only the work of a few people in the company is hilarious.

I know I’m in good company when someone mentions the Toyota restrictive cheat. Others on here wouldn’t know a Belleville washer if a truck carrying them overturned in front of them on the motorway.

In VW’s shoes I think I’d have done the same thing tbh. To properly engineer a solution would require time they simply don’t have. I’d like to think that I’d have never started off down that road in the first place.

 

[SB1500]

Ah come on, quote this great knowledge of tax that will make my knowledge look poor and insignificant.

I’m surprised that someone who is obviously such a maestro when it comes to tax is bothering themselves on a fiat forum on a Sunday night.

Find me a car that will do as near as makes no difference to 70mpg and so far has only cost me just under £200 in servicing and whatever a pair of Michelin wipers from Costco costs... oh and it needs to be as big and spacious as my current car. I’m not doing 105 miles a day in a Panda, did that for a week or two, not doing it again.

I’ll be sitting up waiting for your reply.

Could easily recycle that is:
"I’m surprised that someone who is obviously such a maestro when it comes to being an engineer at an unknown car manufacturer is bothering themselves on a fiat forum on a Sunday night."

I suggest if you want to continue to talk about why, for some reason, my opinions are worth less than yours, you send me a private message to avoid this thread - and many of the more useful members on it - being taken for a silly ride off in the opposite direction of good quality, productive conversation that the FF is normally great for.

 

[306maxi]

Unknown manufacturer? We’re pretty well known tbh ?

I prefer to have my discussions in public, sharing knowledge in public is always best for everyone. The media have demonised diesel for their own end and you’ve fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

 

[SB1500]

Unknown manufacturer? We’re pretty well known tbh ��

Yes, completely unknown to all of us. You haven't mentioned the name yet, but like a child, keep reminding us that you're a very special asset to a very lucky company..

Edit: Yeah, PM if you want any more response from me to you. I will continue to post to this thread and reply to other people completely ignoring what you say out of respect for other users who want to hear more on the topic of VW, diesels etc and less of your personal opinions and their importance

 

[306maxi]

Have you ever considered that perhaps I don’t wish to mention my place of work because I don’t want people to know exactly where I work? I have actually mentioned where I work to a couple of people on this thread in private message and I offered to show a photo of my photo work ID to a mod if you really wanted me to ?

Anyway, my accountant charges me a stupid amount a month to do my accounts, show me this knowledge of yours and perhaps you can be my accountant? ?

 

[306maxi]

Oh and you might want to check out the ecoboost 3 cylinder engine. It’s direct injected. But we’re not going to see DI in any cheap cars anytime soon are we!

 

[SB1500]

Have you ever considered that perhaps I don’t wish to mention my place of work because I don’t want people to know exactly where I work? I have actually mentioned where I work to a couple of people on this thread in private message and I offered to show a photo of my photo work ID to a mod if you really wanted me to ?

Anyway, my accountant charges me a stupid amount a month to do my accounts, show me this knowledge of yours and perhaps you can be my accountant? ?

Well if you don't want people to know where you work... stop mentioning where you work? Doesn't seem like you've got a great sense of logic for an 'engineer' if on one hand you know it's showboating about your work is a bad idea .. but on the other you can't make a post without mentioning it? lol I know if you worked for a company I owned you'd be tasked with engineering an alternative workplace..

Show me your ID if you want .. you know, since it's Me who's asking you about it.. I'm sure the Moderators couldn't care a less about where you work.. again, not a great problem-to-solution mindset for an engineer... SB1500 asks where you work... so you decide to show a random, other member? ..

If you go back to the post where I mentioned tax and finance.. you should be able to make out that I said I was not going to replicate your childish behaviour with it so you'll have to do without that eagerly awaited response sadly.

 

[306maxi]

I’m not showboating, I’m using it to back up my argument.

If for instance you were having a discussion about winter tyres would you want the advice of an accounting genius or a tyre engineer from one of the big tyre companies? I know which i’d choose and that’s why I ask my Spanish mate who works for one of the big European tyre companies for tyre advice and not you

Believe what you want, You’ve got 0 chance of ever being my boss so...

I never said I showed anyone else where I work, I told them and because they know me from numerous encounters on here they seem to trust me, one of the people even said they do recovery work for us and I believed them.

You make it sound like you don’t believe that I work for a car company and when I offer to prove it you go all silly on me, this is why I’m not going to share that sort of information with someone who’s clearly a few sandwiches short of a cylinder head.

 

[SB1500]

I’m not showboating, I’m using it to back up my argument.

If for instance you were having a discussion about winter tyres would you want the advice of an accounting genius or a tyre engineer from one of the big tyre companies? I know which i’d choose and that’s why I ask my Spanish mate who works for one of the big European tyre companies for tyre advice and not you

Believe what you want, You’ve got 0 chance of ever being my boss so...

I never said I showed anyone else where I work, I told them and because they know me from numerous encounters on here they seem to trust me, one of the people even said they do recovery work for us and I believed them.

You make it sound like you don’t believe that I work for a car company and when I offer to prove it you go all silly on me, this is why I’m not going to share that sort of information with someone who’s clearly a few sandwiches short of a cylinder head.

I don't come on here to give advice because I can't honestly say to anybody on here seeking car advice what they should do. I come on here very often for advice and most members are fantastic at that. The secondary thing I come on here to do is get involved in some of the discussions where it's less about advice and facts, and more about opinion and viewpoint. This is a thread where lots of people are here to talk about the VW Scandal, and that of course, involves talk of Diesels.

All I have done at a few points is state that look, my view, and the views of others too are against diesels. Against what VW did. I don't own one, nor do I need to for my opinion to matter. I explain all of what I think. Some of it may be true and fair view, some of it may not. I'm not here to change anybody else's view or tell them why they are (or why I think) they are wrong.

Just because I don't like diesels does not warrant you coming on here to me (and a few other members) and continuously trying to insult our intelligence, brag about how you're apparently qualified to know better than us at every turn of the conversation etc..

It's very unproductive for the discussion and whilst I've personally got nothing better to do, and have all the time in the world to respond on it.. it's probably annoying and deterring others from chipping into the thread.

The difference in you and me is that I don't come on here to insult people, I don't come on here to pretend or act like I know better, I don't think I'm 110% right, and therefore everybody else is wrong.

I'm 21 which is why I suspect you continue to try and insult me... I don't know what age you are but I can guess it's a bit older than me.. I come on here because I've got the time to burn frankly. If what you say is true then you've probably got a bit of decent money, decent job, your life is at a lot more accomplished stage than mines thus far... and you're here, insulting and debating with me. No wife? No better things to do? No better place to be?

Without getting too personal or lowering myself, by the time I'm your age I hope I have something much better to do.. It's been fun, and frankly, a complete waste of time, but I'm bowing out of this thread because there's no way to have a good discussion with behaviour like yours on here. It will just continue to degrade from here on in.

Sincere apologies to anyone else who has participated who has been sidetracked by this bickering of 306maxi and myself. No more from this point on.

 

[dombooth]

No more from this point on.

Agreed, pack it in! Please stick to the thread with less bickering chaps. I really don't want to lock the thread.