Volkswagen emissions scandal

[StevenRB45]

The Fiesta does shudder in the wrong gears and can feel flat. It’s a 5 speed box, should be better with the new 6 speed. It’s doesn’t like 4th gear at 30 for example.

Tbf it depends on the engine character. The old DS3 I would sit and fantasize about a 10 speed automatic because that would have been the only way to ever make that car feel like it had a usable powerband. The C3 has the same 5 speed box with nearly the same ratios but crucially rather than a power band that runs 1800 rpm to 2700rpm it runs 1400 to 5500rpm with a flat torque curve up to 4000 and peak torque is literally the same for both 1.6d and 1.2 petrol.

As a result you aren't always in the wrong damn gear all the time and constantly fishing in the traditional Citroen gear box every 2 seconds.

 

[JimbbobW1977]

Tbf it depends on the engine character. The old DS3 I would sit and fantasize about a 10 speed automatic because that would have been the only way to ever make that car feel like it had a usable powerband. The C3 has the same 5 speed box with nearly the same ratios but crucially rather than a power band that runs 1800 rpm to 2700rpm it runs 1400 to 5500rpm with a flat torque curve up to 4000 and peak torque is literally the same for both 1.6d and 1.2 petrol.



As a result you aren't always in the wrong damn gear all the time and constantly fishing in the traditional Citroen gear box every 2 seconds.

I recently drove the new 308 with the 1.6d 5 speed it was dreadful at 30 mph in 4th simply not possible and really flat feeling and the shuddering and vibrations were not good.

The 5 speed PSA box although easy enough to use is very baggy and long in throw.

I don’t remember the previous generation 308 1.6d being so bad, we had those at work, they were fairly smooth, mind you I’ve driven a 1.4 68bhp hdi 307 and that wasn’t as bad. It can only be emissions programming and long gearing.

 

[portland_bill]

The media always go ga ga for the handling of Fords for some reason

I think the media get the sporty models to test, so have stiffer suspension.

For a while there was an engine listed with I think around 85ps power output. Was that a non-turbo version of the triple does anyone know?

The new Fiesta also is available with the new TiVCT engine. Strangely, with higher CO outputs than the 100hp ecoboost, so not sure what's happening there. For the Fiesta, the engine is described as a 1.1, but in the Ka+ it is a 1.2. Very confusing.

 

[puntofan01]

I wonder if the ka+ uses the old 1.25 zetec? I think that was the 85bhp engine you were referring to.

 

[JimbbobW1977]

I wonder if the ka+ uses the old 1.25 zetec? I think that was the 85bhp engine you were referring to.

It uses a simpler version of the old 1.25 zetec engine and is classed as a 1.2 and tuned for torque.

The 1.1 in the new Fiesta is an enlarged version of the 1.0 ecoboost but without the boost part it’s NA

 

[portland_bill]

The old (just replaced) Fiesta listed a 1.0 3cyl at around 85ps, so definitely not the old 1.25. But with the new model, that has gone, so can't be seen now.

The Ford website, lots of big pictures, not much info, shows the TiVCT as a 4 cyl, so a description of an enlarged ecoboost doesn't fit with that. Seems strange that they'd develop a new 4cyl and achieve poorer results than they already had with the ecoboost.

 

[JimbbobW1977]

This is some information I can find on the 1.1 taken from autocar review

At the entry level, a 1.1 Ti-VCT naturally aspirated version of the three-cylinder engine is available with 69bhp in the Style and 84bhp in the three-door Zetec tested here. Both come with a five-speed rather than six-speed gearbox

What's it like?
The good news is that the Fiesta’s outstanding handling, ride and steering qualities are unaffected by the increase in size; if anything, they’re even better than before. The steering is light enough for easy parking but loads up nicely in corners to give plenty of feel. Grip is good and that much is telegraphed back through the wheel, making quick drives on twisting country roads fun and confidence-inspiring, even in the wet. There’s little body roll but, despite that, the ride is supple and effective damping ensures there’s no skittering on poor surfaces. As before, brakes are powerful, if oversensitive, and would benefit from more pedal feel.

No turbocharger means this 84bhp engine lacks more than just power; the diesel-like punch of its boosted sisters is also missing when you accelerate. Because of that, response feels sluggish, although speed soon builds up with patience. The naturally aspirated engine is gruffer than the refined turbo versions, too, and its three-cylinder configuration more noticeable.

 

[portland_bill]

Intriguing.
I'd be surprised if Autocar got the number of cylinders wrong.

Here's some text from Ford's Ka+ pages:
"Powering the KA+ is a responsive and economical four cylinder 1.2 litre Ti-VCT petrol engine. It’s available with two power outputs, 70PS or 85PS, and a five-speed manual gearbox. Fuel economy is superb, with low CO2 emissions of 114g/km."

And here's the equivalent text from the Fiesta section:
"The revolutionary 1.0 litre 3-cylinder Ford EcoBoost petrol engine gives you all the power you’d expect from a conventional 1.6 engine, but achieves better fuel economy and CO2 emissions as low as 97g/km. Win, win. You can also choose a 1.1 litre TiVCT engine that gives you up to 85 PS to play with whilst keeping emissions down to just 101g/km."

It appears that they are giving the Ti-VCT label to both 3 & 4 cyl engines, and with similar power outputs. Perhaps engineering the Fiesta to take the 4cyl petrol was an expense they just avoided, as space should not have been a problem, as the diesel is 4cyl, so must be room. I shall go and have a lie down now to let the confusion gently drift away.

 

[StevenRB45]

Ti-vct is just Ford for variable valve timing, my dad has a focus ti-vct from 2005 it's nothing new. If anything they probably just add the label to differentiate from the ecoboost turbo cars. I.e. 1.0 ti-vct = N.A. 1.0 ecoboost = turbo even though it will also have Ti-vct.

I'd imagine it's as dull as cost per unit, seem to recall reading an ecoboost and all auxiliaries is more expensive and heavier than an equivalent 1.6. That was for kit car use but given the level of engineering required to make a 3 cylinder smooth and not sound like a buzz saw I would not be surprised if it still applies when ford are building them for themselves.

That and it differentiates the "cheap and cheerful" Ka + from the "Premium" fiesta.

 

[portland_bill]

Ti-vct is just Ford for variable valve timing, my dad has a focus ti-vct from 2005 it's nothing new. If anything they probably just add the label to differentiate from the ecoboost turbo cars. I.e. 1.0 ti-vct = N.A. 1.0 ecoboost = turbo even though it will also have Ti-vct.

I'd imagine it's as dull as cost per unit, seem to recall reading an ecoboost and all auxiliaries is more expensive and heavier than an equivalent 1.6. That was for kit car use but given the level of engineering required to make a 3 cylinder smooth and not sound like a buzz saw I would not be surprised if it still applies when ford are building them for themselves.

That and it differentiates the "cheap and cheerful" Ka + from the "Premium" fiesta.

Thanks for the explanation, makes a lot of sense.

I remember a claim that the ecoboost engine would fit on an A4 piece of paper. Probably a bare unit would, but the underbonnet area of the Fiesta is stuffed full, more so than with the NA1.4.

 

[StevenRB45]

I remember a claim that the ecoboost engine would fit on an A4 piece of paper. Probably a bare unit would, but the underbonnet area of the Fiesta is stuffed full, more so than with the NA1.4.

That claim referred to the footprint of the bare block iirc. It shouldn't be as busy under the bonnet of a naturally aspirated unit (which you'd also imagine is cheaper) but it'll still be a bit of a boat anchor given they built the block out of cast iron as a cheap way of coping with lots of boost.

 

[JimbbobW1977]

I completely agree with wanting a strong car, but I'd imagine my Grande or my parents 2009 Clio would've done a good job of protecting us in a similar impact as well: for me personally, car design reached its peak in around the mid 00s.

Puntofan01 - perhaps time to hang up the GP keys after this result

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/161698/zero-star-safety-rating-for-fiat-punto

How times have moved on the GP is now a 0 star rated NCAP car

 

[Steve145]

Puntofan01 - perhaps time to hang up the GP keys after this result

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/161698/zero-star-safety-rating-for-fiat-punto

How times have moved on the GP is now a 0 star rated NCAP car

I'm not sure I agree with EuroNCAP's assignment of star values, I think it's misleading.

Please don't think I'm trying to argue with the results, I'm not, just the stars.

Technology improves and EuroNCAP have to update their tests, so far so good.

However, they decided to stick with the same star system, meaning the results of the old and new tests cannot be directly compared. This is where the consumer is going to get seriously confused.

Is the Punto less safe now than when it came out? No, it's the same car.

Is it less safe than it's current rivals? Yes, technology has moved on.

Is it safer than a car that scored 4 stars under the original EuroNCAP system (Megane 1)? Yes.


While retesting older designs is admirable and should give the manufacturers a kick to improve, I think they should have not had a cap on the number of stars possible. If the GP scored 5 when it came out, cars now should be scoring around 10.

That way consumers could easily compare new with old...

 

[JimbbobW1977]

I'm not sure I agree with EuroNCAP's assignment of star values, I think it's misleading.



Please don't think I'm trying to argue with the results, I'm not, just the stars.



Technology improves and EuroNCAP have to update their tests, so far so good.



However, they decided to stick with the same star system, meaning the results of the old and new tests cannot be directly compared. This is where the consumer is going to get seriously confused.



Is the Punto less safe now than when it came out? No, it's the same car.



Is it less safe than it's current rivals? Yes, technology has moved on.



Is it safer than a car that scored 4 stars under the original EuroNCAP system (Megane 1)? Yes.





While retesting older designs is admirable and should give the manufacturers a kick to improve, I think they should have not had a cap on the number of stars possible. If the GP scored 5 when it came out, cars now should be scoring around 10.



That way consumers could easily compare new with old...

Agreed - The GP by no means is unsafe at all and still a safe car if involved in a collision.

If you look at for example the Rover 100 that was absolutely frightening in the tests very dangerous, however the Punto now scores less than the 1 star given to the Rover, this is misleading

 

[AndyRKett]

Agreed - The GP by no means is unsafe at all and still a safe car if involved in a collision.

If you look at for example the Rover 100 that was absolutely frightening in the tests very dangerous, however the Punto now scores less than the 1 star given to the Rover, this is misleading

The biggest let down is the complete lack of new driver assistance technology, which is why it ended up with zero stars.

On the NCap website, taking the technology out of the equation it would score 2 stars by current standards, which is a significant drop in what it achieved when it was new.

It’s interesting as it pitches the old punto against the new 2014 mini (which was the type my wife was driving when she had her accident).

“but I'd imagine my Grande or my parents 2009 Clio would've done a good job of protecting us in a similar impact as well”

The mini is a 4 Star car. And scores 79% for adult occupant protection (ignoring all other results) the punto only scored 51% so all in all, no the punto would not do anywhere near as well as a >2014 mini hatch.

 

[puntofan01]

Puntofan01 - perhaps time to hang up the GP keys after this result

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/161698/zero-star-safety-rating-for-fiat-punto

How times have moved on the GP is now a 0 star rated NCAP car

I still feel safe in my Grande tbh: it still has a strong passenger compartment, and unlike the 1s that they tested, mine has 6 airbags rather than just 2. I fully intend to try and find a current model Punto when the time comes to replace my Grande, and I'll make sure I buy another 1 with 6 airbags. I'm really not bothered by the lack of driver aids tbh. I feel that if you drive properly, you don't really need them: I'd feel far, far safer in my parents old mk2 Corsa with my dad driving than I would in a new supermini stuffed full of driver aids that was being driven by a moron.

 

[JimbbobW1977]

I still feel safe in my Grande tbh: it still has a strong passenger compartment, and unlike the 1s that they tested, mine has 6 airbags rather than just 2. I fully intend to try and find a current model Punto when the time comes to replace my Grande, and I'll make sure I buy another 1 with 6 airbags. I'm really not bothered by the lack of driver aids tbh. I feel that if you drive properly, you don't really need them: I'd feel far, far safer in my parents old mk2 Corsa with my dad driving than I would in a new supermini stuffed full of driver aids that was being driven by a moron.

Driving aids - drive properly you don’t need them. That’s all well and good however you simply can not count on the actions of other motorists. For example, couple of weeks back, at a busy island the car in front of me set off and I set off, all of a sudden the car in front of me just slammed its brakes on for an ambulance going through a red. By the time I had lifted my foot off the accelerator and was going for the brake pedal the car had already performed a stop using this technology - city braking.

It’s an impressive piece of kit, and certainly prevents accidents and certainly something that should not be ruled out.

I may well of stopped in time, however I needn’t know as the car did

 

[puntofan01]

I must admit, I think that would unnerve me. What happens if these systems go wrong though? I'd be uncomfortable with using cruise control for the same reason.

 

[JimbbobW1977]

I must admit, I think that would unnerve me. What happens if these systems go wrong though? I'd be uncomfortable with using cruise control for the same reason.

Why should it unnerve you? It’s acted before the human brain even has a chance to react.

I had city stop on my last car, the system on my current car is even more sophisticated.

Another example I have, a car pulled out of a side road in front of me on a 40mph road, yes I was annoyed at it, and probably followed to close to it, at the last minute it braked hard to turn left onto another side road, at point I started to steer round, the car bleeps collision assistance or something similar already starts to slow the car and prime the ABS system in case of emergency braking. It is effective certainly.

Cruise control - I don’t tend to rely on using cruise as I like to feel in control of the car and cruise takes some of that away. Mines does have adaptive cruise, and it works very well, braking and accelerating to the set speed. It’s very unnerving at first but the you learn to trust. The only problem is though I have found is when you turn it off, you need to remember to brake!!

These technologies are great and help to reduce accidents

 

[306maxi]

Jesus, this again?

My actual 9-5 (well, 8-5 Monday - Thursday and 8-12 on a Friday) job is to administer the ticket system where we log issues with pre-series (prototype to the layman) cars.

We pay people to drive cars 24/7 in various different conditions and road types and using all of the different features of the cars to find issues with functionality. They take traces so that engineers can play back what the car was doing and work out what changes they need to make to the cars.

Last week I was meant to go on a drive from the factory all the way down to Milan via France, Germany and Austria and then back via the Mont Blanc tunnel.

We do all sorts of stuff like parking with one wheel up a kerb to make sure that sensors stay connected and wiring isn’t damaged.

The development cars do millions and millions of miles before any members of the public get to drive them on the open road. We have cars that drive around test tracks 24/7 for weeks on end being mercilessly pounded into oblivion by hire drivers who are there to give the cars hell and find weak points in cars. One of our cars had a tyre delaminate at vmax and wrecked an axle. We do this so that it doesn’t happen to you.