uk-make-self-driving-car-makers-liable

[StevenRB45]

It's very simple, release cars only when they are fail safe rather than dangerous.

They release something dangerous it will have ramifications for them as a company

Do the development before not after release...this is not a printer it's anything up to 3 tonnes and 1500bhp of deadly weapon.

 

[AndyRKett]

It's very simple, release cars only when they are fail safe rather than dangerous.

They release something dangerous it will have ramifications for them as a company

Do the development before not after release...this is not a printer it's anything up to 3 tonnes and 1500bhp of deadly weapon.

Lets put that in context. without these technologies, the car is still a huge mass of metal and plastic, hurtling a long at 70mph, with the only thing keeping it from causing or being involved in an accident, is dependent on the level of concentration of the idiot behind the wheel, singing to their music, chatting on hands free calls, arguing with kids in the back, smoking, vaping, drinking, eating. I have literally seen someone eating a bowel of cereal while driving.... And nothing, not a single thing to keep them in check or make sure they are paying attention.

Literally anything that increases the level of safety whether that is something to stop someone driving off the road or to remind them to pay attention is better than nothing at all.

The fact that "self driving" cars which lets be honest are not "self driving" the fact they have accidents is often put down to these features being switched off or the person not using them correctly. Like the drink driver who drove for 45 minutes with some 200 prompts and then still crashed into the police cars... when in reality without that self driving ability he may just had that accident in the first 5 minutes of driving while still on residential streets.

The tesla driver who went into the side of a lorry, should have been able to brake and stop the accident himself if he was just paying attention.

As I said, literally anything that stops these idiots having accidents is better than nothing at all.

 

[Greasytrucker]

It’s all technology for the sake of technology that gives people jobs, bit like Alexa in people’s homes……..although for partially sited people I’d imagine it’s a fantastic invention. Automatic braking averting an accident i can see the point of, but as for things like automatically turning on the lights and wipers etc it’s as much about laziness and a selling point rather than safety. As I said before, until they sort the roads out we’re as far as we’re going to get

 

[StevenRB45]

But the point is...if the systems are crap they won't stop idiots having accidents they'll just change the accidents they are going to have. Probably to something higher speed and more serious...

Hence why manufacturers who want to sell their cars as self driving need to take responsibility for their wares.

 

[AndyRKett]

But the point is...if the systems are crap they won't stop idiots having accidents they'll just change the accidents they are going to have. Probably to something higher speed and more serious...

Hence why manufacturers who want to sell their cars as self driving need to take responsibility for their wares.

How many fatal accidents happened in the world just today, and how many of them where self driving cars, and if just one of them involved a self driving car which one do you think you're going to hear about in the news???


As I said before any technology that prevents an accident happening is better than no technology at all. The technology is not causing the accidents. It is the people behind the wheel still causing the accidents technology or not. The extra idiotic people who would normally have had an accident the technology has prevented now just have to go that extra mile to cause a crash, the problem with people is there is always someone willing to go that extra mile

 

[chr1s]

I have literally seen someone eating a bowel of cereal while driving

Only in East Anglia

 

[AndyRKett]

Only in East Anglia

This was many years ago in Liverpool..... which also explains it.

 

[StevenRB45]

It'll be fine...they can just not release dangerous vehicles and they'll not be held responsible for the accidents they cause.

Think of it as a way of ensuring they actually do what they are saying they are going to do...for once.

It's not like lying to the consumer for commercial advantage is a default position in the automotive industry. Mpg figures, range figures, pollution figures none of these have ever been fabricated or attained in highly specific test conditions so it would be entirely reasonable to expect them not to lie when they say a car is self driving...rather than *self driving


*Only on an empty straight road with no other objects and the driver steering

 

[SB1500]

They should reduce them substantially because the driver is never liable and the manufacturuer is but I don't ever see that happening

I remember hearing that if I got a dashcam they'd give me a discount. Nope, no insurers I've used or gotten quotes from seem to back it up. But Nextbase have it on their site! haha Insurers always have some excuse to charge more.

 

[SB1500]

It's very simple, release cars only when they are fail safe rather than dangerous.

They release something dangerous it will have ramifications for them as a company

Do the development before not after release...this is not a printer it's anything up to 3 tonnes and 1500bhp of deadly weapon.

You're right.

Problem is, from a marketing perspective, they need the big splash headline as the first UK legal car with full self driving to get the sales and hype they crave.

They can market it today as the next step in driving aids but the car buyer in the UK already has a short list of cars to test drive that are already packed with those. Not a stand out or generational leap as the promise of a 'full self driving' car.

Some manufacturer will go for it and make the claim, and pay the price.. Even with a number of horrific tragedies under their belt, car manufacturers, a bit like social media, tend to get away with a lot and our memories are so short we continue to forgive them and support them with our attention and money. The car makers know that.

 

[AndyRKett]

It'll be fine...they can just not release dangerous vehicles and they'll not be held responsible for the accidents they cause.

no one is intentionally sending things out into the market knowing them to be dangerous. The danger comes from the users thinking that technology is always going to save their ass when they do something wrong, it’s no different to someone buying some stupidly powerful car then wrapping it round a tree, it’s not the car that caused the accident more the person using that car well beyond their level of skill or talent.

If a self driving car actually causes the accident because of a flaw in the self driving technology then it is right that those who designed that system should be held accountable, the thing is most of the accidents that have happened with self driving technologies is largely because of the stupidity of the meat bag behind (or in some cases not behind the wheel) and using the technology to do things it is not designed to do.

One high profile case was the Tesla that crashed into the side of a lorry that was turning illegally in front of it and was broad side to the Tesla, this being the reason the car didn’t recognise the hazard as it was just a mass of white lorry trailer and the driver wasn’t paying any attention I seem to think he was asleep with it in auto pilot mode.

So we do nothing and don’t introduce technology making any death the responsibility of the person who causes the accident (which is of no consolation to the family of those who are hurt through no fault of their own) or we introduce technologies with the intention that accidents are avoided or stopped entirely.

I find it hilarious to say that the technology doesn’t work because it’s only programmed to not run over adult humans and it doesn’t recognise something as obscure as a baby crawling out into the street. If a car stops a pedestrian accident 200 times, that’s 200 times no one gives it a second thought and carries on their day as normal.

But if through some weird circumstance the car fails to recognise the hazard and runs over someone wearing a lot of layers pushing a bike across a main road late at night with the bike hidden by bags, suddenly that is a failure in technology and all self driving technology is evil and should be banned.

 

[s130]

I have literally seen someone eating a bowel of cereal while driving.... And nothing, not a single thing to keep them in check or make sure they are paying attention.

When I lived in Belgium I actaully saw a guy reading his morning News Paper draped over the steering wheel whilst he drove down the motorway from Brussels to Ostend!

Another pet hate of mine is people driving with their arm / elbow propped up against the window and door top. Even more so when I see traffics cops on the various TV programs (Traffic Cops / Police Intercepters) doing the same. **** happens, tyre blowouts, animals, etc. and rapid avoidance and control can't be done with you arm jammed up against the window, especialy is a fast right hand down action is required.

 

[AndyRKett]

When I lived in Belgium I actaully saw a guy reading his morning News Paper draped over the steering wheel whilst he drove down the motorway from Brussels to Ostend!

People do such stupid things when driving, any level of technology that prevents idiots from killing themselves it could be argued is causing more evolutionary problems for the human species, however the problem with motoring is they often take innocent people with them when they do cause an accident

Another pet hate of mine is people driving with their arm / elbow propped up against the window and door top. Even more so when I see traffics cops on the various TV programs (Traffic Cops / Police Intercepters) doing the same. **** happens, tyre blowouts, animals, etc. and rapid avoidance and control can't be done with you arm jammed up against the window, especialy is a fast right hand down action is required.

This just isn’t comfortable to do on modern cars, the doors tend to be much higher the bottom of the window higher, I find if I try to do that on any newer cars I hurts by shoulder to keep my up in that weird and unnatural position, I mainly notice it when you go through a car park and have to reach out of the car to get the ticket out of the machine. I’m nearly 6foot 3 and so not short, I don’t know how shorter people manage to drive along with their arm up

 

[RalphM]

So if the self drive car does plow into a crowed and kill
a dozen, who gets locked up, if a driver did it and was at fault they would likely get time.

 

[AndyRKett]

So if the self drive car does plow into a crowed and kill
a dozen, who gets locked up, if a driver did it and was at fault they would likely get time.

I think this is why companies developing this tech are also building in all the measures to record exactly what happened to defend themself against any liability.

Basically the manufacturers will take liability if it can be shown that their technology actually caused the accident, however so far there are few/no cases where the technology actually was solely and entirely responsible for causing the accident. Instances of teslas crashing into emergency vehicles while on autopilot are easily avoided by the driver paying attention

 

[StevenRB45]

no one is intentionally sending things out into the market knowing them to be dangerous. The danger comes from the users thinking that technology is always going to save their ass when they do something wrong, it’s no different to someone buying some stupidly powerful car then wrapping it round a tree, it’s not the car that caused the accident more the person using that car well beyond their level of skill or talent.

If a self driving car actually causes the accident because of a flaw in the self driving technology then it is right that those who designed that system should be held accountable, the thing is most of the accidents that have happened with self driving technologies is largely because of the stupidity of the meat bag behind (or in some cases not behind the wheel) and using the technology to do things it is not designed to do.

One high profile case was the Tesla that crashed into the side of a lorry that was turning illegally in front of it and was broad side to the Tesla, this being the reason the car didn’t recognise the hazard as it was just a mass of white lorry trailer and the driver wasn’t paying any attention I seem to think he was asleep with it in auto pilot mode.

So we do nothing and don’t introduce technology making any death the responsibility of the person who causes the accident (which is of no consolation to the family of those who are hurt through no fault of their own) or we introduce technologies with the intention that accidents are avoided or stopped entirely.

I find it hilarious to say that the technology doesn’t work because it’s only programmed to not run over adult humans and it doesn’t recognise something as obscure as a baby crawling out into the street. If a car stops a pedestrian accident 200 times, that’s 200 times no one gives it a second thought and carries on their day as normal.

But if through some weird circumstance the car fails to recognise the hazard and runs over someone wearing a lot of layers pushing a bike across a main road late at night with the bike hidden by bags, suddenly that is a failure in technology and all self driving technology is evil and should be banned.

People are idiots...

Don't call the car self driving if it isn't or they'll assume it is and they'll absolutely switch off their brain the moment they engage self driving. They will also use the tech in ways you never thought of so bloody well test it properly.

If you don't do see this and fail to account for that deserve to pay for it as a company because this is and always has been basic human behaviour.

 

[RalphM]

I suspect it will happen but seeing as these company's can afford the very best lawyers money can buy
no one will end up being accountable, on the other hand a ordinary driver would be locked up,
you can as they say buy justis.

 

[AndyRKett]

If you don't do see this and fail to account for that deserve to pay for it as a company because this is and always has been basic human behaviour.

And this is why we have the most ridiculous warnings on things because of this belief that no person should be held responsible for being completely stupid, unless the company making said product expressly states not to do something idiotic then it’s not the idiots fault, but the users fault for not knowing that they shouldn’t put their hand in the 200°C hair straightener or on one item I bought, with a warning not to put a Bluetooth keyboard in a microwave….. because that is a perfectly normal warning that needs to be made because obviously you would put a computer keyboard in the microwave?

Where companies fail or do things that a dangerous yes they should be held responsible but when it comes to “self driving” the drivers also have to be responsible

 

[StevenRB45]

The problem with this is it's likely not the stupid user who will pay...it'll be a pedestrian or a cyclist.

So unless they are going to limit it to 3.5 miles an hour with a blaring siren on top while self driving you can't say the people who are injured by it are guaranteed to be at fault.

Also you've sold a car as self driving and you've not provided the owner with exhaustive list of exactly what it can and can't do...so yeah it's on you.

 

[AndyRKett]

The problem with this is it's likely not the stupid user who will pay...it'll be a pedestrian or a cyclist.

So unless they are going to limit it to 3.5 miles an hour with a blaring siren on top while self driving you can't say the people who are injured by it are guaranteed to be at fault.

Also you've sold a car as self driving and you've not provided the owner with exhaustive list of exactly what it can and can't do...so yeah it's on you.

I feel you’re only one step away from insisting that someone with a red flag walks in front of any car with self driving technology installed.

The point here is that the cars are not causing the accidents, even with or without self driving technology the same idiots would still injure themselves or others, the technology tries to stop this, but there is a limit to what the car can prevent.

Are there any actual genuine examples of any self driving car or technology being deemed to the the specific cause to an accident?