uk-make-self-driving-car-makers-liable

[s130]

Kings speech

Wonder how the "drunk in charge" will work out. More legislation?uk-make-self-driving-car-makers-liableuk-make-self-driving-car-makers-liable

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/uk-make-self-driving-car-makers-liable-incidents

some content

The legislation will create powers to fine companies and give people immunity from prosecution if they are in a self-driving vehicle. Self-driving car companies could face criminal action in the U.K. if their vehicles fail to meet safety standards in the most serious cases.

The bill will also prohibit misleading marketing, meaning only vehicles that meet the safety threshold can be marketed as self-driving.

 

[StevenRB45]

They should be...

"Our car is self driving" *crash happens* "no not like that".

At the end of the day if you're expecting someone to sit and just watch in case your car may or not do something unexpected for possibly 100s of hours between incidents and expect the driver to react instantly and correctly everytime you know very little about human performance factors.

Humans are very good at making quick decisions on possibly in complete information in a short time...what they aren't so good at it is doing that with 0 situational awareness after looking up from reading a book at 70mph when the car bings that it might be a bit stuck.

 

[s130]

What I'm thinking is what are insurance companies going to do premiums for those with self driving cars? They should reduce them substantially because the driver is never liable and the manufacturuer is but I don't ever see that happening. They wll just come up with some excuse like the manufacturer is wriggling because the camera lens was dirty which is the driver's faults and the cost of taking it to court is very expensive.

 

[Greasytrucker]

The fully self driving car is years away, they struggle to fill in pot holes, let alone make the white lines good enough on all roads for these s*it machines to work. Complete white elephants, same as electric cars in general. Once synthetic E fuels are developed more and the production cost comes down people will realise they can keep there petrol or diesel cars and just put a fuel in the tank that doesn’t polute. I think Tesla’s tag line should be “Can’t drive a proper car? Buy a Tesla!”

 

[StevenRB45]

Well all the advanced driver aids really seem to work..

Tesla Has The Highest Accident Rate Of Any Auto Brand

Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers, a study found. Tesla recently recalled 2 million vehicles over problems with its autonomous driving functionality.

www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Greasytrucker]

Well all the advanced driver aids really seem to work..

Tesla Has The Highest Accident Rate Of Any Auto Brand

Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers, a study found. Tesla recently recalled 2 million vehicles over problems with its autonomous driving functionality.

www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Quite!

 

[AndyRKett]

Well all the advanced driver aids really seem to work..

Tesla Has The Highest Accident Rate Of Any Auto Brand

Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers, a study found. Tesla recently recalled 2 million vehicles over problems with its autonomous driving functionality.

www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Tesla is first and foremost a technology company, they’re really not great at making cars, but when there technology doesn’t work that’s when the share price tumbles.

Teslas self driving tech is way behind compared to new systems being launched on cars now, even the new lotus SUV has self driving tech that uses LiDAR and other advanced technologies that Tesla still hasn’t used. On top of that the cars are getting old now the model S is over 10 years old the model X will be 9 years old soon, the model 3 came out in 2017 and while the Model Y the newest car in their line up is only 3 years old, you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference between a model 3 or a model Y at any distance.

Anyone massive Tesla fan boys have more than scratched that itch now and with nothing new or interesting on the horizon and with it becoming apparent their self driving stuff is going to be the Betamax of self driving. Tesla is in a precarious position right now. Musk also borrowed several billion to finance his acquisition of Twitter and if the value of teslas shares drop too much then he has to put up more and more Tesla shares as collateral against what he’s borrowed.

 

[StevenRB45]

It's too complicated there will always be the possibility of "ghosts in the machine" eg. The woman who got woman who got run over by a self driving uber because she hung bags on the handle bars of her bike and as a result baffled it to the point it killed her. You've got no idea of if it's interpreting everything it see's or may see correctly until it doesn't.

If you sell this stuff you need to held responsible for it..in the same way as a driver would be.

 

[s130]

And I gather (old news) that in Australia those pesky Kangaroos that appear out of nowhere are still an issue for the tech. Guess same would go for deer in the UK.

Personally I would be gutted if I hit a rabbit or other wildlife and I can't see this self driving tech keeping up with the smaller wildlife.

Have they tested a small baby falling out of a pram and crawling across the road? We humans would instantly clock that even though a very highly unlikey event.

 

[StevenRB45]

In theory they should clock these things..in practice it's impossible to test every possible of scenario of clothing colour, light condition, if the sensors are dirty... temperature weather. Etc etc.

So there will always be the possibility of a combination of factors leading to it doing something really stupid...eg. identifying a woman as a windblown plastic bag.

 

[AndyRKett]

When you consider in many hundred thousand years of human evolution, it’s only the last hundred or so we started strapping ourselves into mechanically powered vehicles and even with 100+ years of development the vast majority of driver still make many simple mistakes every day when driving whether that’s being in the wrong lane or not checking a mirror when changing lane.

Then you expect those same humans to program to program a computer to do what most people cannot ?

I’m a big advocate for self driving cars, mainly because humans suck at driving and if every car was replaced with a self driving car today a huge number of stupid accidents just wouldn’t happen, it’s not going to eradicate all accidents because humans had an endless capacity for causing accidents and injuries and if you can think of something happening, someone had probably already done it and killed themselves doing so

 

[StevenRB45]

Yes, but it's swapping not checking a mirror for an unforeseen combination of sensory limits and programming allowing the car to drive into an emergency vehicle without braking...

As they want to make these things they should not be allowed to just let them loose and pile the bodies up in the name of development. There needs to be a chain of responsibility that ends with those actually responsible.

 

[s130]

When you consider in many hundred thousand years of human evolution, it’s only the last hundred or so we started strapping ourselves into mechanically powered vehicles and even with 100+ years of development the vast majority of driver still make many simple mistakes every day when driving whether that’s being in the wrong lane or not checking a mirror when changing lane.

Then you expect those same humans to program to program a computer to do what most people cannot ?

I’m a big advocate for self driving cars, mainly because humans suck at driving and if every car was replaced with a self driving car today a huge number of stupid accidents just wouldn’t happen, it’s not going to eradicate all accidents because humans had an endless capacity for causing accidents and injuries and if you can think of something happening, someone had probably already done it and killed themselves doing so

The many humans that suck at driving is an issue. No question or doubt in my mind about this.

Driving is a craft you can never completely master as there is always something new to learn with every mile you drive. And that is if you at least try. Sadly many / most don't and there is no ongoing driving assessment like pilots have to go through to filter the unsafe off the road.

Since I lost the sight in one eye I'm staggered at how crap other driver's are. With legal monocula vision I can safely drive though road pinch points with oncomming traffic (busses, lorrys, cars) when other just ram on the brakes a stop. Also I have to scan even more. Many drivers don't scan and just focus on what is immediately in front of them. No awareness of danger factors potentially emerging onto/into their path.

So yes I would agree that decent self driving technology, despite it's flaws, can be good improvement for those idiots on the roads. Make these people pass ongoing driving tests and then if they fail stuff them in a self driving car only!

The technology will eventually get there.

 

[AndyRKett]

As they want to make these things they should not be allowed to just let them loose and pile the bodies up in the name of development. There needs to be a chain of responsibility that ends with those actually responsible.

I think that they probably said something very similar about the motor car some 120something years ago

 

[StevenRB45]

I think that they probably said something very similar about the motor car some 120something years ago

They absolutely did, and that is why you need to have compulsory motor insurance, a driver's license and if you cock up you go to prison.

 

[AndyRKett]

They absolutely did, and that is why you need to have compulsory motor insurance, a driver's license and if you cock up you go to prison.

The point being, that the vast majority of drivers are pretty bad everything @s130 said is pretty valid and same as electric car fires get more press than they should, every time a car with self driving tech has an accident people are quick to report it and blame the tech, rather than the sleeping muppet who fell asleep at the wheel

 

[StevenRB45]

It's ok they can simply avoid going bankrupt by not releasing broken dangerous cars.

So there should be no problems...

 

[AndyRKett]

It's ok they can simply avoid going bankrupt by not releasing broken dangerous cars.

So there should be no problems...

Maybe the issue like any situation is not the technology but the people using it.

The tech-bros who buy Teslas….maybe the early adopters are also the ones least likely to exercise caution, the ones most likely to drink drive, fall asleep while driving. Do stupid things like climb in the back or wedge something in the steering wheel to fake the car into thinking you’re holding the steering wheel

 

[StevenRB45]

Get it..

But if you didn't the sell the car as self driving..people wouldn't get in turn the self driving on and fall asleep...or read a book or whatever the damn fool thing they are going to do is.

The people to whom self-driving most appeals tend to be those that have no interest in driving. They may not be particularly competent drivers, but combine an incompetent driver and an incompetent system and well you get the Tesla accident rate.

So yeah, if you as a company want to allow people to abdicate the responsibility for driving largely to the car then you as a company should take the responsibility for the results your product creates.

 

[AndyRKett]

Get it..

But if you didn't the sell the car as self driving..people wouldn't get in turn the self driving on and fall asleep...or read a book or whatever the damn fool thing they are going to do is.

The people to whom self-driving most appeals tend to be those that have no interest in driving. They may not be particularly competent drivers, but combine an incompetent driver and an incompetent system and well you get the Tesla accident rate.

So yeah, if you as a company want to allow people to abdicate the responsibility for driving largely to the car then you as a company should take the responsibility for the results your product creates.

The issue is paradoxical.

Drivers are crap, we need more technology to make up for all the accidents caused by idiots, the idiots buy the technology and find new ways to kill themselves and overwhelm the technology.

Technically speaking if used properly then self driving cars would be safer but as with anything we are still in the early days and it is likely to take some years to nail everything down to make it truly idiot proof.

20 years ago if you wanted to install a printer and a scanner you basically needed a bachelors degree in computer science, for that oh so simple "plug and play" technology. It took till now to make it so you just plug it in and the computer goes off on the internet finds the drivers and all the necessary software and basically does it all for you. Just installing a scanner or a printer, in an easy user friendly way took about 20 years to figure out. You expect the self driving cars to be able to nail it in what 10 years or so since the first teslas went on sale with supposed self driving tech? probably not even 5 years since other manufacturers started taking this more seriously.

It is a case of self driving cars (like people) need to learn how to drive and so that is going to involve a lot of real world use and training on the roads, which will only be achieved by companies introducing the technology to consumers, as no company has the resources or budgets needed to have a fleet of cars running near 24/7 for years at a time to encounter every scenario they can think of and do that for several years before any of the R&D gives them something they can deliver as a product.

What you're asking is someone sitting at a computer with no data on real world use, to be able to write a computer program that will enable a car to drive 100% safely in any situation and to do that without any research, they're just supposed to be able to do that some how?