Technical Thoughts on The MK3 Panda Cross For a New Driver?

[TheMossMan44]

As I've relayed in another post, I'm looking for a first car and have decided to go for a panda if possible. Yesterday i came across a 4x4 Cross from 2010 with a 1.2 litre diesel engine. It's clocked up 99k miles and admittedly has a slightly spotty MOT history with a 71% pass rate.

I'm not really looking for a car which can race down motorways or anything so I'm not super worried about its performance, but I am concerned about whether it'd be so expensive to repair frequently that it's not worth spending the £2,000 asking price on it?

 

[porta]

Well I ‘inherited’ my wife’s 169 2009 cross wehn she got a Renegade, the daughter has had it for three years and we have not had anything more than oil n filter changes, brakes and tyres out of the ordinary…except for:
a rear hatch after the wife reversed into a tree and
me soldering the osf abs sensor wire after she managed to get a (bloody huge) branch stuck in the bash plate, that also
bust an AC pipe but I’ve not bothered replacing that

 

[PuntoHowTo]

If you go ahead and buy this car, then I would definately look at getting the cam chain and oil pump replaced. Then the engine should last you another 100k miles.

There can be issues around the engine such as the high pressure fuel pump is known to weep but otherwise they are pretty solid.

you will also find the torque of the diesel is plenty enough to keep you up with most traffic and is a lot more punchy than the 1.2 petrol models.

I know that the 4x4 gear can suffer bearing failures and so I would make sure before you buy that there are no unusual sounds coming from under the car. but I would not be put off that car by the mileage.

 

[jrkitching]

The 169 Panda is a good first car, but at that age & price point, I'd only consider a 2WD 1.1 or 1.2 petrol.

Condition is everything; what it's likely to cost you in repairs going forward is more important than the screen price.

Many 14 yr old cars with 100k on the clock that are being offered for sale are basically just junk, so take someone with you who knows what they're doing before committing to a purchase.

 

[TheMossMan44]

Well I ‘inherited’ my wife’s 169 2009 cross wehn she got a Renegade, the daughter has had it for three years and we have not had anything more than oil n filter changes, brakes and tyres out of the ordinary…except for:
a rear hatch after the wife reversed into a tree and
me soldering the osf abs sensor wire after she managed to get a (bloody huge) branch stuck in the bash plate, that also
bust an AC pipe but I’ve not bothered replacing that

That's great, thank you! I'll just make sure to be careful in reverse then lol

 

[TheMossMan44]

If you go ahead and buy this car, then I would definately look at getting the cam chain and oil pump replaced. Then the engine should last you another 100k miles.

There can be issues around the engine such as the high pressure fuel pump is known to weep but otherwise they are pretty solid.

you will also find the torque of the diesel is plenty enough to keep you up with most traffic and is a lot more punchy than the 1.2 petrol models.

I know that the 4x4 gear can suffer bearing failures and so I would make sure before you buy that there are no unusual sounds coming from under the car. but I would not be put off that car by the mileage.

Good to know they're hardy. Thanks for the cam chain and pump advice mate.

Any idea how much a cam belt and/or oil pump change would cost for this model?

 

[Bonefish Blues]

The 169 Panda is a good first car, but at that age & price point, I'd only consider a 2WD 1.1 or 1.2 petrol.

Condition is everything; what it's likely to cost you in repairs going forward is more important than the screen price.

Many 14 yr old cars with 100k on the clock that are being offered for sale are basically just junk, so take someone with you who knows what they're doing before committing to a purchase.

Sound advice here. I'd swerve a 4x4 unless you have a good bork fund or know the car well - and even then bork fund.

 

[koalar]

1.2 Diesel

I assume that a typo

I weigh up the pro and cons, yours might be different

Cons

12 years old
More expensive to run
More expensive to repair
Don't like short journeys
Some parts are unique and getting hard to find

Just tried one reg London's checker

Probably means there also a charge per day in other cities across the UK

Pros

4x4
Larger ground clearance
Styling
Cheep for a 4x4 diesel

Would I buy it

as I live in flat Cheshire, and no need of a 4x4, plus the nearest city has an ULEZ probably not

But if I lived down a farm track or in Snowdonia, sure

At the end of the day it's a personal choice

 

[TheMossMan44]

If you go ahead and buy this car, then I would definately look at getting the cam chain and oil pump replaced. Then the engine should last you another 100k miles.

There can be issues around the engine such as the high pressure fuel pump is known to weep but otherwise they are pretty solid.

you will also find the torque of the diesel is plenty enough to keep you up with most traffic and is a lot more punchy than the 1.2 petrol models.

I know that the 4x4 gear can suffer bearing failures and so I would make sure before you buy that there are no unusual sounds coming from under the car. but I would not be put off that car by the mileage.

Good to know they're hardy. Thanks for the cam chain and pump advice

1.2 Diesel

I assume that a typo

I weigh up the pro and cons, yours might be different

Cons

12 years old
More expensive to run
More expensive to repair
Don't like short journeys
Some parts are unique and getting hard to find

Just tried one reg London's checker

View attachment 446086
Probably means there also a charge per day in other cities across the UK

Pros

4x4
Larger ground clearance
Styling

Would I buy it

as I live in flat Cheshire, and no need of a 4x4, plus the nearest city has an ULEZ probably not

But if I lived down a farm track or in Snowdonia, sure

At the end of the day it's a personal choice

Okie dokie, thank you for the research mate; I appreciate it!

 

[koalar]

Good to know they're hardy. Thanks for the cam chain and pump advice mate.

Any idea how much a cam belt and/or oil pump change would cost for this model?

£437 in 2013 at a fiat franchise

My guess it will have doubled in the last 11 years

Labour rates are over £100 per hour, not sure what the official time is but fiat always seem way over, I'd guessed 3-4 hours

Even an independent will have £150+ in parts chargable before the labour is add

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Good to know they're hardy. Thanks for the cam chain and pump advice mate.

Any idea how much a cam belt and/or oil pump change would cost for this model?

i'd budget maybe £500 for an independent to do the job. it will probably need new oil and filters along side this work so might as well budget an extra £100 - 200 in their back pocket to cover any additional costs.

That being said it is still cheap for a Panda Cross.

I would make such bold assumptions that anything with 100k on the clock at that age is junk. There are plenty of cars about that are that age with that mileage and are in good condition.

ULEZ is only a concern if you want to drive into the zones covered by ulez's which for me wouldn't be a concern, I am not sure where you are based but it may not be a concern for you either.

when buying any old panda make sure you check the condition of the rear suspension beam as they're very prone to rust and in bad cases the rear suspension can collapse.

 

[jrkitching]

I would make such bold assumptions that anything with 100k on the clock at that age is junk. There are plenty of cars about that are that age with that mileage and are in good condition.

That's not what I said.

I'd agree that there are plenty of cars of that age and mileage in daily use and in good order. There are quite a few on this forum.

But most folks with cars like that don't part with them without good reason. The ones that are being offered for sale are much less likely to be in that sort of condition. Some would cost more than the value of the car to put into good order. The trade tends to filter out the best ones long before they end up on a dealer forecourt; it's the condition of those that I'm advising a would be purchaser to be wary of.

It upsets me when a young person with little experience ends up paying what is to them a significant sum of money for a car that's essentially rubbish, and we've seen quite a few examples of that on here.

ULEZ is only a concern if you want to drive into the zones covered by ulez's which for me wouldn't be a concern, I am not sure where you are based but it may not be a concern for you either.

That's the current situation, but it would not surprise me if in the near future essentially the whole of the UK became a ULEZ.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

That's not what I said.

I'd agree that there are plenty of cars of that age and mileage in daily use and in good order. There are quite a few on this forum.

But most folks with cars like that don't part with them without good reason. The ones that are being offered for sale are much less likely to be in that sort of condition. Some would cost more than the value of the car to put into good order. The trade tends to filter out the best ones long before they end up on a dealer forecourt; it's the condition of those that I'm advising a would be purchaser to be wary of.

Oh I agree its not all cars, but with the likes of WBAC and dealerships offering laughable trade in values, there are still good cars about that can be bought cheaply.



One of my early cars was a Mk1 Punto I picked up for £600 at 3.5 years old, with just 40k miles on the clock, because the dealership only offered £500 for a trade in. This was in 2003, so I appreciate car prices have gone up then. But this car was immaculate, owned by an elderly couple who had decided to sell two cars as they were retired and now only needed 1.



What would be the equivalent of a £600 car today? the BoE's inflation calculator suggests about £1060.



anyway the point is there are good cars to be had at the bottom end of the market you just need to be careful. That said their are some real dogs that are only a couple of years old as well.

It upsets me when a young person with little experience ends up paying what is to them a significant sum of money for a car that's essentially rubbish, and we've seen quite a few examples of that on here.

True but people are allowed to make mistakes. we've all had bad cars at some point or another. At least these days something like an old Panda still has some good value even if it is a dog. But the bonus of something like a panda is that the parts can be very cheap and most jobs can be done on the drive way with some basic tools so its a good place for the OP to start if he does want something he can do himself and learn on.

That's the current situation, but it would not surprise me if in the near future essentially the whole of the UK became a ULEZ.

Looking at the state of ULEZ and the conflict it has caused. The vandalism of the camera. The massive cost to install. The ongoing legal battles.

I don't see anyone extending any of the current ULE zones as things stands and it would be a very brave politician to even suggest introducing anything countrywide. you have to remember the majority of people who live in london do not have cars and are therefore not affected by the ULEZ, where as having a network of spy cameras across the UK to catch anyone would not only amount to a human rights violation but also affect all those very wealthy people who are wealthy because they don't trade in their old land rovers and bentleys each year. There are still millions of older cars across the country which would not be allowed if a country wide scheme was introduced.. Basically it's not going to happen as most cities are not currently even introducing anything similar.

 

[koalar]

I don't see anyone extending any of the current ULE zones as things stands and it would be a very brave politician to even suggest introducing anything countrywide. you have to remember the majority of people who live in london do not have cars and are therefore not affected by the ULEZ, where as having a network of spy cameras across the UK to catch anyone would not only amount to a human rights violation but also affect all those very wealthy people who are wealthy because they don't trade in their old land rovers and bentleys each year. There are still millions of older cars across the country which would not be allowed if a country wide scheme was introduced.. Basically it's not going to happen as most cities are not currently even introducing anything similar.

Effects both it's value and how easy it is to sell on

At the moment


2010 cross 1.3D

£8 day Birmingham
£9 day Bristol
£12.5 day most of inside the M25
£60 PCN Scottish cities

Proposed, due or enforce

Aberdeen
Bath
Birmingham
Bristol
Bradford
Dundee
Edinburgh
Glasgow
London
M4 and major A roads in Wales
Oxford
Newcastle
Gateshead
Portsmouth
Sheffield
Southampton
York


Cites in England up and running
Bath
Birmingham
Bradford
Bristol
Portsmouth
Sheffield
Newcastle and Gateshead
Majority within the M25
Scottish cities

Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs)​

If a vehicle does not meet the specified emission standards, then the owner of that vehicle would be subject to a PCN should they drive it within a LEZ.

Only one PCN can be received per day (00:00 – 23:59).

The initial penalty charge for all non-compliant vehicles is set at £60, reduced by 50% if it is paid within 14 days.

The penalty amount doubles with each subsequent breach of the rules detected in the same LEZ.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Effects both it's value and how easy it is to sell on

yes but you're arguing over something which largely is irrelevant to the question being asked in this thread. The OP will be aware of their own circumstances and if this is something that is applicable to them.

For example you'd have to be pretty thick to live in London and not be aware of the ULEZ when it comes to buying a car.

and despite that long list of places that are under a ULEZ or considering one, none of them would affect me so depending on where the OP lives and works, it may be irrelevant to him as well.


It is pretty obvious the OP has his mind set on a Panda 4x4, so rather than trying to constantly put him off, why not guide him on what to look out for and make sure has the tools and knowledge so he can go out and find a good one.

 

[jrkitching]

What would be the equivalent of a £600 car today? the BoE's inflation calculator suggests about £1060.

Lower priced small used cars have increased in value by substantially more than the BoE's inflation calculator.

If you tried to buy a 3 1/2 yr old Panda with 49K today for £1060, you'd be laughed at.

You'd be lucky to find one on a forecourt for less than £8000.

Not so long ago you could buy a 10yr old Panda with about 80k for well under a grand, but those days are gone forever.

Finding a good value starter car for a first time driver is much harder today than it was 20 years ago.

 

[koalar]

It is pretty obvious the OP has his mind set on a Panda 4x4, so rather than trying to constantly put him off, why not guide him on what to look out for and make sure has the tools and knowledge so he can go out and find a good one.

14 near it's end of life diesel panda 4x4 as a first car

Just adds more cost and risk


EGR valve,;common, access not good
HP pump
Turbo
Rear subframe, writes off the car normally, common
Centre bearing, common, expensive for a garage
DPF it's a multijet 2 yes it has one
Electric Hydraulic coupling,almost impossible to get
Chain not quick to change, expensive
Already band from several cities, more to follow
Higher £190 tax
Higher insurance group 7 vs 3 for a 1.2 dynamic

A more modern 1.2 with the tax saved would be more sensible as a first car, unless you need the 4x4

 

[Yolanda]

If you need a 4x4 then heed the warnings above, remember their 4x4 for a reason. It could of had a hard life. If you don't need 4 wheel drive as jrkitching says, go for a 2 wheel drive petrol version.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

14 near it's end of life diesel panda 4x4 as a first car

Just adds more cost and risk


EGR valve,;common, access not good
HP pump
Turbo
Rear subframe, writes off the car normally, common
Centre bearing, common, expensive for a garage
DPF it's a multijet 2 yes it has one
Electric Hydraulic coupling,almost impossible to get
Chain not quick to change, expensive
Already band from several cities, more to follow
Higher £190 tax
Higher insurance group 7 vs 3 for a 1.2 dynamic

A more modern 1.2 with the tax saved would be more sensible as a first car, unless you need the 4x4

You know the diesel is band D £160 a year verses a 1.2 petrol 4x4 which is £255? Rust issues ok the rear axle 4x4 parts are likely to be the same if it’s a petrol or diesel.

When you are complaining that a 14 year old car is at the end of its life why is a panda 1.2 dynamic going to be any better.

Again no one is asking what car you would buy this person is specifically asking about the panda 4x4 that’s clearly what he wants. I don’t understand people’s need to find fault in everything and try to put him off.

So stop suggesting non 4x4 cars because he might as well just go buy any other boring econo-box fwd car

 

[Yolanda]

I don't think anyone is trying to put the OP off. We're just trying to give him advice on what to look out for.