General Thinking of buying a Panda CNG 0.9

[WitleyPanda]

Some general notes:-
The make-up of any transport grade gas, be it LPG or CNG may vary from country to country and source to source. So in the UK LPG is sold under the Autogas name and is propane, not propane/butane mix. CNG trends to be pure methane, but may have some propane to correct the calorific value.
CNG historically used for trucks/HGVs where Diesel engines have been re headed to reduce compression ratio and introduce spark ignition.
The fuel is cleaner and burns more complete, so the wear on the engine should be less. However most wear on engines occurs on cold start-up and typically LPG/CNG engines use petrol/gasoline to help or fully to start. If the engine has been fully designed for gas then, particularly in warmer climates, it may start without a dual fuel.

CNG/LPG engine should run with lower noise, so if the test drive vehicle noisy would compare it to a petrol equivalent, as to the baseline noise levels.

Lastly CO2 and Nox levels far lower, more environmental vehicle.

 

[niktsol1978]

Since you are in Greece, let me tell you about my experience with Greek Fiat (in Corfu) this month.

My 0.9l twinair (non-CNG) had some worrying rattling. My mechanic, who is very good and a friend, checked everything you would normally check and couldn't find it. He then sent me to fiat.

I paid them 50 euros to "diagnose" the problem. They wanted over 400 euros to replace the engine mounts, but with no guarantee it would fix the problem. My mechanic already checked these and said they were fine.

So I took it back to my mechanic and bought a DMF and new clutch, and one engine mount (one had some signs of wear, so we replaced it anyway). It turns out the issue was the DMF (a weak point in this car), and the clutch was ruined at the same time. Fiat had told me 100% it wasn't the DMF (even though they said they have only sold one other twinair on Corfu, so don't have much experience).

Why the big problems? This is a 2 cylinder engine and is unique and rare, very rare in Greece, no one knows how to work it (apparently not Fiat themselves). As you are in Greece I would advise against getting the Twinair in CNG or petrol. Not least because of the poor fuel economy. Find something small mechanics can work on, or once the warranty expires, you will have problems.

I'm so sorry you had these issues. It is nightmare when there is a problem with your car, and even the authorized service has some concerns about finding the solution. I had once a problem with my BMW 520 E39 (primary vehicle i own), back in 2008 and the authorized service could not find it. And i paid almost 500 Euros for parts that finally didn't need to be changed. And i live in Athens, not in Corfu. And the vehicle was a 1998 production vehicle almost 10 years old back in 2008.

I cannot find something with better gas mileage than CNG. Panda is the cheapest one (11.990 Euros) while other car markers offer CNG vehicles with starting prices more than 16.000 Euros. Hybrid vehicles are also expensive as new ones.

I am not sure if this engine version is rare in Greece. Probably in Corfu, there were not many vehicles, but i have seen many of them in Athens, where i live. I've sent an e-mail to Fiat dealership, asking some technical information. I'm thinking the previous one, with 1,2 litre engine, actually i have found a 2010 model.


Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[eshroom]

When we were looking for ours (used), we only found diesel multijet in Greece, so we ended up importing the car from Germany.

If you're buying new and it has a warranty then at least you're fine for the first few years. This forum helped a lot when I had the problems and if you know a good mechanic that won't charge fiat prices, then you should be ok.

Of course, as others have said this is a thirsty engine, we get 6.2 l/100km. Imagine if you bought a car with a less thirsty engine and then do the conversion to CNG yourself, how much less the running costs would be.

 

[niktsol1978]

When we were looking for ours (used), we only found diesel multijet in Greece, so we ended up importing the car from Germany.

If you're buying new and it has a warranty then at least you're fine for the first few years. This forum helped a lot when I had the problems and if you know a good mechanic that won't charge fiat prices, then you should be ok.

Of course, as others have said this is a thirsty engine, we get 6.2 l/100km. Imagine if you bought a car with a less thirsty engine and then do the conversion to CNG yourself, how much less the running costs would be.

I had some talk with people own the non CNG version, about the fuel consumption. 4,8 to 6 litres depending the load, driving style etc. Well i thought to do the conversion to my own vehicle, but in general i don't trust after market conversions.

 

[eshroom]

You have probably already seen this list of factory CNG cars available in Greece: http://www.autogreeknews.gr/autokin...078-ola-ta-nea-aftokinita-me-fysiko-aerio-cng

 

[timmycm850]

Hi Guys and Gals

back to very early in the thread.

the reason the 0.9 sounds thrumpy upto 2500 revs is that we have mostly got used to 4cyl engines so imagine driving a 4 cylinder engine round below 1250 revs, it would be a bit thrumpy.

2cyl cars fire half as many times as a 4 cyl at the same revs.

i noticed this when my Wife who normally drives a panda 1.2 with a rev counter jumped into Her 2cyl 1970 fiat 500 without rev counter, she was not changing gear until about 5500 revs as it sounded like her 1.2 panda at 2750 revs.

i hope this makes sense

Tim

 

[niktsol1978]

You have probably already seen this list of factory CNG cars available in Greece: http://www.autogreeknews.gr/autokin...078-ola-ta-nea-aftokinita-me-fysiko-aerio-cng

Yes, i've done my search, through several sources. Thanks a lot. Fiat Panda has the cheaper but also provides a big gasoline tank, in case there is no CNG available

 

[niktsol1978]

No, the handbook actually states "0.9 Twinair Turbo Natural Power" cannot tow. It's a different model to the 70hp LPG car that also cannot tow.

Tell me something. Since I'm thinking seriously of buying the CNG version, is there any reference to the manual about turning off engine after a short or long ride? Should I let the engine 3-4 minutes idling when the car is still before turn off the engine?

 

[niktsol1978]

Yes, i've done my search, through several sources. Thanks a lot. Fiat Panda has the cheaper but also provides a big gasoline tank, in case there is no CNG available

There is also an option of warranty extend to 200.000 kilometers. I'm thinking about using this option

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Tell me something. Since I'm thinking seriously of buying the CNG version, is there any reference to the manual about turning off engine after a short or long ride? Should I let the engine 3-4 minutes idling when the car is still before turn off the engine?

I have pasted the section from the handbook below... As with any engine, no need to 'blip' throttle before turning off, or to wait until warm before driving off. However, as with any modern (especially turbo) engine, good practice to wait with the engine idling for a few seconds before turning off (this ensures a spinning turbo is not starved of oil). However, more than a few seconds would be pointless.

 

[niktsol1978]

I have pasted the section from the handbook below... As with any engine, no need to 'blip' throttle before turning off, or to wait until warm before driving off. However, as with any modern (especially turbo) engine, good practice to wait with the engine idling for a few seconds before turning off (this ensures a spinning turbo is not starved of oil). However, more than a few seconds would be pointless.

Thanks a lot my friend. Thank you for posting this information. In general TA engines are reliable aren't they? Probably, tomorrow i'm gonna shake hands with the dealership and buy the 0,9 Panda CNG version

 

[eshroom]

The consensus seems to be, if serviced regularly (more than the handbook recommends and oil once every 8k or once a year) and if it is driven calmly, then it will be as reliable as any other engine.

 

[niktsol1978]

Good news. I ordered my Fiat Panda CNG new one, with 5 years warranty or 75000 km, with extension to 200.000 km. It will be parked in my garage in about 7-8 working days due to Christmas holiday. I would like to thank you all people for participating to this topic, and for your valuable answers to my questions. I wish everybody a happy 2020.

Eventually I'm gonna open a new topic, for my 1st impressions with my new vehicle

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I am not sure if this engine version is rare in Greece. Probably in Corfu, there were not many vehicles, but i have seen many of them in Athens, where i live.

I’m pretty sure they use them at Athens airport, I flew to Athens a couple of months back and am sure all the pandas on the airport where CNG versions.

I’ll be interested to see how you get on with it.

 

[niktsol1978]

I’m pretty sure they use them at Athens airport, I flew to Athens a couple of months back and am sure all the pandas on the airport where CNG versions.

I’ll be interested to see how you get on with it.

Sure, thanks for the comments. I am looking forward to have it parked i my garage, ptobably 1st week of 2020. I will post my impressions. Thanks for your interest!!

 

[The Beard]

Some general notes:-
The make-up of any transport grade gas, be it LPG or CNG may vary from country to country and source to source. So in the UK LPG is sold under the Autogas name and is propane, not propane/butane mix. CNG trends to be pure methane, but may have some propane to correct the calorific value.
CNG historically used for trucks/HGVs where Diesel engines have been re headed to reduce compression ratio and introduce spark ignition.
The fuel is cleaner and burns more complete, so the wear on the engine should be less. However most wear on engines occurs on cold start-up and typically LPG/CNG engines use petrol/gasoline to help or fully to start. If the engine has been fully designed for gas then, particularly in warmer climates, it may start without a dual fuel.

CNG/LPG engine should run with lower noise, so if the test drive vehicle noisy would compare it to a petrol equivalent, as to the baseline noise levels.

Lastly CO2 and Nox levels far lower, more environmental vehicle.

I'm afraid that the UK has been very dilatory when it comes to alternative fuels, in my opinion. I would have thought that hydrogen would be a viable alternative to petrol but the infrastructure has never been put in place.

Around 20 years ago, Scania tried an experiment whereby they converted a number of tractor units that had been on contract hire to LNG and CNG and put them back out on lease. In theory that could have been a good way of making cleaner, and presumably lower taxed, vehicles but even though it would have been ideal for large fleets, including the likes of home delivery vans, there doesn't seem to have been much take up.

So that will be a lack of infrastructure then.

Bit of a theme developing.

 

[chris3234]

I'm afraid that the UK has been very dilatory when it comes to alternative fuels, in my opinion. I would have thought that hydrogen would be a viable alternative to petrol but the infrastructure has never been put in place.

Around 20 years ago, Scania tried an experiment whereby they converted a number of tractor units that had been on contract hire to LNG and CNG and put them back out on lease. In theory that could have been a good way of making cleaner, and presumably lower taxed, vehicles but even though it would have been ideal for large fleets, including the likes of home delivery vans, there doesn't seem to have been much take up.

So that will be a lack of infrastructure then.

Bit of a theme developing.

CNG is used byquite a few hgvs local truck stophas a filling station and my work place has most of there hgvs converted to be able to run it and a filling station in the yard
Imagine the several £k cost of conversion puts many off

 

[Ilias Tsiftsian]

Hello Nik, proud Greek owner of Fiat Panda 0,9 CNG (METANO as the fellow Italians say). Dm me about further info. 146k miles in that thing about 25k in the last 8 months. Rides good , its economic , perfect for the city , fun to drive , good clearance for curbs and "offroad" . I bought a used one because i want to service the cars i buy on my own. There are some issues that you have to be careful..... but if you are going to buy a new one you have 5yrs warranty. So don't think too much. VW Up has only 9lt of petrol...and its ugly. Ibiza and Arona 15k+. Panda is the only solution in the City. :slayer:

 

[The Panda Nut]

I wish we could get the CNG car in the UK.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I wish we could get the CNG car in the UK.

But we can't buy CNG here? And not many places with LPG these days either?