Technical The end is nigh for bumble?

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Technical The end is nigh for bumble?

Popitinpete

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2009 169 1.1 eco active, engine has rattle/knock/tapping sound when hot coming from the no1 cylinder area, lower down, its Not valve clearance shims out of tolerance.
No blue smoke, no drop in performance, doesn't use oil, no drop in water level. drives spot on, only noisy when warm, oil light goes out immediately and dose not flicker. only happened in the last month or so after a few motorway journeys totalling 1000 miles, nice and steady @70mph indicated (66 mph on sat nav GPS) returned 58mpg.

I think its a gonner but before I offer it as spares or repairs on here drive away 2 mins off junction 2 of the M5 at oldbury( £400, 3 months mot, 97k,very good bodywork, mint interior, yellow, 2 x new front shocks, 2 recent bottom arms, 2 recent tyres, cambelt replaced 2 months ago at 95k,if that's OK with admins) is it a known thing on these fire engines to start going wrong in a certain way/place, does a particular part start to give way first and is identifiable etc etc, I will try to add a video, thanks in advance
 

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Before you do anything drastic I would remove the alternator and air con if the car has air con belt/ belts and check if it still does it.
OK, the noise does seen to be coming from there. Are you familiar with this failure? Thanks
 
No not really its a case of when the said belts are removed the alternator and air con units are not turning thereby eliminating them. Another thing you could try if you're handy enough is to remove the timing belt cover and have a check that nothings come loose.
Does the noise stop or change in any way when the clutch is pressed.
 
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Before you do anything drastic I would remove the alternator and air con if the car has air con belt/ belts and check if it still does it.
No its the same with the alternator belt off, I guess the final check is to see if the spray bar is clear, if it is its got to be internal, poss small end prob etc
 
No not really its a case of when the said belts are removed the alternator and air con units are not turning thereby eliminating them. Another thing you could try if you're handy enough is to remove the timing belt cover and have a check that nothings come loose.
Does the noise stop or change in any way when the clutch is pressed.
I've done all that mate, no offence intended at all but I need to point out I'm a vehicle and bike tech of 35 years I'm not being a d*ck it's just it will save a lot of time, please don't take it the wrong way. I've done all the checks, I just wanted to know if it's a classic thing for this engine to do before it implodes, is it a trait of this engine. Its strange it's not smoking or using oil, drives well, it doesn't add up, thanks for the alternator tip
 
No not really its a case of when the said belts are removed the alternator and air con units are not turning thereby eliminating them. Another thing you could try if you're handy enough is to remove the timing belt cover and have a check that nothings come loose.
Does the noise stop or change in any way when the clutch is pressed.
Where's koala when you need him lol, have you taken his place?
 
I've done all that mate, no offence intended at all but I need to point out I'm a vehicle and bike tech of 35 years I'm not being a d*ck it's just it will save a lot of time, please don't take it the wrong way. I've done all the checks, I just wanted to know if it's a classic thing for this engine to do before it implodes, is it a trait of this engine. Its strange it's not smoking or using oil, drives well, it doesn't add up, thanks for the alternator tip
No offence taken. Hope you get it sorted on way or the other.
 
No offence taken. Hope you get it sorted on way or the other.
Thank you for the alternator idea, I did the old long screwdriver to ear stethoscope trick on the alternator when it was running and no nasty noises but worth double checking. Thanks once again.
 
Thank you for the alternator idea, I did the old long screwdriver to ear stethoscope trick on the alternator when it was running and no nasty noises but worth double checking. Thanks once again.
Sounds like you've tried all the obvious things I can think about and, being a mechanically minded person you'll have a good ear for the more common noises anyway. I'd been thinking maybe the pulley bearings in the air con compressor, I've heard some of them making some unusual noises, but you've eliminated that.

These sort of noises can be most frustrating to track down. The first car I bought after I got married was a 105E Anglia (base model) - Heluva come down from my Mk1 Dragoon Red 1500 Cortina GT but marriage makes you broke! I got a good deal on it because it had a very slight knock in the engine which I stupidly, with the arrogance of youth, thought I could easily fix. It was a slightly strange and not very loud noise which was loudest at idle and decreased in volume whenever you stood on the gas. I really didn't know what it was but hoped it was valve gear related. Unfortunately couldn't track it down despite stripping the rockers off and looking for worn bushes, rocker arms and shaft, I'd hoped to find worn rocker arm tips. Then I thought it might be something to do with the mechanical fuel lift pump, but no. Anyway the noise got no louder but didn't go away either. Listening to it every day, and the fact it wasn't getting worse quickly, I began to suspect either piston slap or little ends, so eventually I recommissioned one of my old mopeds to ride to work, took the Anglia engine out and stripped it completely. I was quite surprised to find someone had obviously recently been in there before me. Lots of new gaskets etc. To cut a long story short, it had obviously had a cheap "refresh" done on it. The crank had had it's big ends reground 10 thou down with new shells but the mains hadn't been touched, not even the shells. The bores were quite good with only a small ridge at their tops and the piston skirt to bore clearance was almost to new spec. I noticed it had new rings though. So there I was with a pile of components and, although some showed some wear, I really couldn't fault any of them.

At that time I was fresh out of college so my head was full of all the latest "stuff" and I suddenly remembered reading an article about Cords Rings (Piston rings) where they were advertising their re-ring sets. One feature of which was that the top ring featured a "ridge dodger". This was a small step in the outer diameter of the ring so that the top of the ring didn't go quite, by just a few thou, as far up the bore when the piston was at TDC. These rings were particularly intended for fitting to an engine where a rebore was not considered necessary but a small wear ridge is evident at the top of the bore. Hmm? I wondered. So I bought a set and rebuilt the engine with them taking the place of the almost new standard rings which had been in the engine. No more noise! The new standard rings , or one of them anyway, must have been just kissing the ridge at the top of one, or more, of the bores. That engine then ran faultlessly, including several trips London to Edinburgh and back visiting in laws, (It had actually done that journey at least once with the knock and without it getting any louder) It went on for the next 4 years until the car failed it's MOT when I discovered that someone had stuffed the sills with newspapers over which they had glass fibred and filled and sanded down very carefully until you really couldn't see there was actually no metal there! She went to the happy hunting grounds and I bought a Mk1 1600 Triumph Vitesse. Interesting handling with it's swing rear axle setup! I hope someone got the Anglia engine as I'm sure it had many good miles still in it - but who could have guessed it was the rings that were the problem?

Anyone know if cords are still in business? Those happy days are pretty much over now I suppose. I was looking into recon engines for a friend's Seat the other day and came across the fact that you can't dismantle the bottom end on this model because the block warps as the main bearing cradle is slackened and it's impossible to reassemble it - you have to buy a genuine VAG short block - I believe it's not the only one with this problem either? What a crazy world we live in!
 
Well done on posting the video


It seems to me the noise is about the same from the top or bottom, which doesn’t rule out top or bottom end problems but it’s is pointing more towards it being behind the timing covers

Now it would take some better than me to analyse the sound. I think in the last clip of 4 seconds has less 20 knocks. So it’s less much less than 750 RPM

Maybe remove the top half of the timing cover and have another listen, I know the belt was changed recently but there’s very little else going at this speed

Strange it’s worse when hot must point to something. Have to have another think

Is it worse going up hills or accelerating hard ?
 
I doubt it as you can normally smell petrol

But it worth checking checking the spark plug hasn’t worked loose. It’s about the only thing that’s worse when hot

Early days yet. But I would say it doesn’t sound like something terminal to me.
 
Baring in mind that the noise we are hearing via the video may be a bit different to what you would hear standing next to the vehicle, it sounds a bit "light" to be big ends don't you think? I've found a good way to check for big ends is to apply a large throttle opening from idle and listen to the noise as revs increase. You only need to do this for the briefest of time, probably up to around 2 or 3 thousand rpm. As the load goes on you'll hear a noticeable increase in the volume of the knocking noise. However this doesn't sound like ends to me, it's too "light" a noise. It's not making typical worn bearing noises either. Almost sounds a bit like a worn timing chain, but we have a belt so that's out the window too. Listening to the second clip - the one featuring the top of the engine - there seems to be two noises. A "lighter" clicking sound which is very like something to do with cam followers which is constantly audible, by which I mean it's there all the time and a more "knocky" hammer like noise which seems to come and go somewhat. I think, because it's easy and quick to do, I'd be whipping the cam cover off and having a good look - might even start the engine with it off and see what I could observe.

Have you tried a listening tube? I know you mentioned using a screwdriver as a "listening stick" and I've found this very good for tracking down bearing noises in particular but a listening tube, where you just move the open end around the engine, can bring a whole different perspective. If it's valve gear it might be interesting to take the oil filler cap off and stick the end of the tube in - but not too far of course.
 
Baring in mind that the noise we are hearing via the video may be a bit different to what you would hear standing next to the vehicle, it sounds a bit "light" to be big ends don't you think? I've found a good way to check for big ends is to apply a large throttle opening from idle and listen to the noise as revs increase. You only need to do this for the briefest of time, probably up to around 2 or 3 thousand rpm. As the load goes on you'll hear a noticeable increase in the volume of the knocking noise. However this doesn't sound like ends to me, it's too "light" a noise. It's not making typical worn bearing noises either. Almost sounds a bit like a worn timing chain, but we have a belt so that's out the window too. Listening to the second clip - the one featuring the top of the engine - there seems to be two noises. A "lighter" clicking sound which is very like something to do with cam followers which is constantly audible, by which I mean it's there all the time and a more "knocky" hammer like noise which seems to come and go somewhat. I think, because it's easy and quick to do, I'd be whipping the cam cover off and having a good look - might even start the engine with it off and see what I could observe.

Have you tried a listening tube? I know you mentioned using a screwdriver as a "listening stick" and I've found this very good for tracking down bearing noises in particular but a listening tube, where you just move the open end around the engine, can bring a whole different perspective. If it's valve gear it might be interesting to take the oil filler cap off and stick the end of the tube in - but not too far of course.
I was ignoring this possibility for now

As the microphone on a phone it quite sensitive to distance and should have been much more noticeable

I did ask earlier if it was worse going up hill which would possibly point in this direction

It’s quite easy to test, remove all the spark plugs, turn the crank so a piston passes top dead centre and starts to fall. Push a wooden dowel on top of the piston and feel for it to drop due to play. You can get technical and measure the fall but it not needed
 
That noise sounds it's at belt speed and as it's worse when the engine is up to temp, what about the waterpump bearing?

I've seen a post somewhere recently with a similar noise that turned out to be just that.
A cracked belt passing the tensioner is what it sounds like. Except the belt was changed 2 months ago

If @Popitinpete took a video from the same location and distance with the timing cover on and off. There should be a noticeable change in loudness. It would still leave the water pump, belt, pulleys or idler. But would at least tell up if we were in the right area
 
I was ignoring this possibility for now

As the microphone on a phone it quite sensitive to distance and should have been much more noticeable

I did ask earlier if it was worse going up hill which would possibly point in this direction

It’s quite easy to test, remove all the spark plugs, turn the crank so a piston passes top dead centre and starts to fall. Push a wooden dowel on top of the piston and feel for it to drop due to play. You can get technical and measure the fall but it not needed
That's an interesting approach to checking for excess clearance in a big end. I never thought of doing that.
 
That noise sounds it's at belt speed

That’s what I thought

If I was near a PC I would put the video though a sound analysing software software and look at the spectrum and count the beats per minute but I don’t know how to do that on an iPhone

It would be helpful

750 once per revolution
375 every compression or exhaust
Slower but regular on the belt drive

And so on
 
Well done on posting the video


It seems to me the noise is about the same from the top or bottom, which doesn’t rule out top or bottom end problems but it’s is pointing more towards it being behind the timing covers

Now it would take some better than me to analyse the sound. I think in the last clip of 4 seconds has less 20 knocks. So it’s less much less than 750 RPM

Maybe remove the top half of the timing cover and have another listen, I know the belt was changed recently but there’s very little else going at this speed

Strange it’s worse when hot must point to something. Have to have another think

Is it worse going up hills or accelerating hard ?
Cheers koala, that's what's got me, it doesn't add up, I'm just going now to inspect the spray bar to see if it's clogged, you never know, it appears to have been serviced when I got it at 87k but its only what the previous owner told me. Its had 2 oil changes in 10k and the colour of the oil is still a dark see through honey colour and the inside of the rocker box is clear so I can't see it being the black death really but you never know. Just put it on the ramps and it's as quiet as a mouse when cold, strange, will report back 👍🏼
 
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