Technical Temperature needle moves up and down with the engine started but not moving.

[Mike1alike]

Yes, you shoud read the temperature with EcuScan when the needle dancing happens.
Normally, you shoud be able to test cooling fans with EcuScan. Engine off and there is a menu 'Actuators' or so and in that tab there should be Fans speed 1, speed 2. You select them and 'Test' or what button is there and the fan starts on the selected speed.

 

[Communicator]

Hi, today I've connected the OBD to the laptop with FiatEcuscan and got no failures.

I would not expect to see any faults, unless the engine or other warning light is illuminated. Having MES available should allow the coolant temperature as seen by the engine control unit, or compuer, (ECU) to be monitored. If it does not fluctuate in a similar manner to the gauge, then the possibility of serious airlocks in the cooling system can be discounted. This use of MES would also tend to confirm @MKUser 's opinion that the problem is with the temperature gauge circuitry.

Mention has been made of a possible earthing problem. The descrition of the earth connections on MKUser's vehicle does not match with standard x224 vehicle wiring as he mentions two separate earth leads at the battery negative post, where only one is standard fitment. To explain, the earth cable on an x244, runs from the battery negative to the main chassis earth point below the front of the battery to the chassis earth which is in front of the RHS engine mount. At this point a "flag" terminal is crimped around a bared section of conductor. The same cable is then routed under the intercooler and radiator to emerge close to the vehicle centreline, and terminate at a starter motor fixing.. My PVC has a second smaller cable at the battery negative which connects to the habitation negative. The only other applicable earth connection is that for the instrument panel. On the x244 the analogue indications all use electronically driven stepping motors, but it seems tat only the temperature gauge uses the main engine earth for the sensor return path.

If the engine earth is sound, then other possibile causes are faulty connectors, or faulty wires, but why should these become OK as engine operating temperature is reached. This could be checked by connecting an electronic multimeter in parallel with the sensor connection on the instument panel. It may be possible by back probing of the appropiate instrument panel connector, bu it would not be the easiest of connections to make.

SPECULATION
If sensor and wiring including earthing are OK, then the instrument panel becomes suspect. I am begining to think that perhaps an analogue to digital conversion fault, where perhaps the second most significate bit becomes indeterminate, could explain the fluctuations in the reading.

 

[MKUser]

Yes, you shoud read the temperature with EcuScan when the needle dancing happens.
Normally, you shoud be able to test cooling fans with EcuScan. Engine off and there is a menu 'Actuators' or so and in that tab there should be Fans speed 1, speed 2. You select them and 'Test' or what button is there and the fan starts on the selected speed.

Thanks a lot...I've tested the fans with EcuScan and they work.
I've sarted the engine and raise up temperature.
Arriving at 70°C in EcuScan, the niddle was on the top and dancing.
I raised up temperature to 93 °C , the niddle dancing ( see video) and I stopped because , even I checked with actuators and the sensors are new, I was afraid there were problems .
I need to know the exact temperature the fans start.

Al so I know the niddle problem may be in the dash board because the sensor is new but the gauge doesn't reflect the real temperature.

 

[Mike1alike]

I think you can test the needle from the same 'Actuators' menu, too. When you actuate it, needle goes from zero to max and when on max, the temperature light lights up, too. If yours does this I think it means there is no wiring/connection problem there.
I don't think you need to worry about fans, I think they start when they need to, but it's better to play it safe until you sort it out.
Have you tried bleeding with the front wheels on higher ground?

 

[Communicator]

I think you can test the needle from the same 'Actuators' menu, too. When you actuate it, needle goes from zero to max and when on max, the temperature light lights up, too. If yours does this I think it means there is no wiring/connection problem there.
I don't think you need to worry about fans, I think they start when they need to, but it's better to play it safe until you sort it out.
Have you tried bleeding with the front wheels on higher ground?

Sorry but I do not see how that can be so on the x244, as there is no canbus equivalent. It is possible to communicate with the ECU, so it may apply with rpm, and road speed, but I do not know any way in which it could be done with engine temperature, or fuel level, as the sensors for both connect directly to the instrument panel.

 

[Mike1alike]

I see. Ok, then.
You're the expert on Ducato!
But something is happening there and needs to be sorted out.
Any other ideas?

 

[diego74]

First speed of the cooling fan should starts at 96/97°C, I think it is working fine, just the dash gauge is working bad.

 

[Communicator]

I see. Ok, then.
You're the expert on Ducato!
But something is happening there and needs to be sorted out.
Any other ideas?

Yes unfortunately, faulty signal processing in the instrument panel, as I suggested at the end of post #42

 

[MKUser]

I think you can test the needle from the same 'Actuators' menu, too. When you actuate it, needle goes from zero to max and when on max, the temperature light lights up, too. If yours does this I think it means there is no wiring/connection problem there.
I don't think you need to worry about fans, I think they start when they need to, but it's better to play it safe until you sort it out.
Have you tried bleeding with the front wheels on higher ground?

Thanks for you answer.
I didn't see the actuator for the needle , I have to look again and check.
What I saw was to actuate on temperature light and this one didn't turn on with the actuator.
However, the light seems to work. When you put contact on, the light appears and turns off after a few seconds.

I'll try the bleeding on higher ground too.
Thanks.

 

[MKUser]

I would not expect to see any faults, unless the engine or other warning light is illuminated. Having MES available should allow the coolant temperature as seen by the engine control unit, or compuer, (ECU) to be monitored. If it does not fluctuate in a similar manner to the gauge, then the possibility of serious airlocks in the cooling system can be discounted. This use of MES would also tend to confirm @MKUser 's opinion that the problem is with the temperature gauge circuitry.

Mention has been made of a possible earthing problem. The descrition of the earth connections on MKUser's vehicle does not match with standard x224 vehicle wiring as he mentions two separate earth leads at the battery negative post, where only one is standard fitment. To explain, the earth cable on an x244, runs from the battery negative to the main chassis earth point below the front of the battery to the chassis earth which is in front of the RHS engine mount. At this point a "flag" terminal is crimped around a bared section of conductor. The same cable is then routed under the intercooler and radiator to emerge close to the vehicle centreline, and terminate at a starter motor fixing.. My PVC has a second smaller cable at the battery negative which connects to the habitation negative. The only other applicable earth connection is that for the instrument panel. On the x244 the analogue indications all use electronically driven stepping motors, but it seems tat only the temperature gauge uses the main engine earth for the sensor return path.

If the engine earth is sound, then other possibile causes are faulty connectors, or faulty wires, but why should these become OK as engine operating temperature is reached. This could be checked by connecting an electronic multimeter in parallel with the sensor connection on the instument panel. It may be possible by back probing of the appropiate instrument panel connector, bu it would not be the easiest of connections to make.

SPECULATION
If sensor and wiring including earthing are OK, then the instrument panel becomes suspect. I am begining to think that perhaps an analogue to digital conversion fault, where perhaps the second most significate bit becomes indeterminate, could explain the fluctuations in the reading.

Thanks for your post.
During the test, in FiatEcuScan the temperature parameter did'nt fluctuate , remained rising up slowly when I accelerate to 3000 rpm.
The needle at this time was dancing and going near the top.
At aprox 70°C in EcuScan , the needle went to the H and remained there.
After arriving to 93 °C stable on EcuScan( see video) the needle start to dance again , even going below the middle .
I suspect the problem is in the dash needle.
I don't know very well what to do to solve the problem.

 

[Mike1alike]

If you still have the sensors that you replaced and that are working you could try do a testing. Identify which one communicates with the needle. On wormed up engine, disconnect one of the sensors connector and put the ignition on. The sensor communicating with the needle is the one that once disconnected makes the needle stay down when you turn the key on. Then connect the old sensor to that wire and do the testing with wormed up an hot water. Put the sensor in water, make it hotter and read the needle response, see if there is any dancing. If there is, the problem is on the electrical circuit. If needle doesn't dance, problem is not with the electrical circuit it's probably air in the system, I can't see what else could be in that case.

@Communicator, is there any relay on the needle circuit and could it produce this result when it is getting hot, if it went bad?

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for your post.
During the test, in FiatEcuScan the temperature parameter did'nt fluctuate , remained rising up slowly when I accelerate to 3000 rpm.
The needle at this time was dancing and going near the top.
At aprox 70°C in EcuScan , the needle went to the H and remained there.
After arriving to 93 °C stable on EcuScan( see video) the needle start to dance again , even going below the middle .
I suspect the problem is in the dash needle.
I don't know very well what to do to solve the problem.

I agree that the fault is most probably in the instrument panel. The only more conclusive test that I can think of is simple, but difficult to make the connection at the instrument panel connector A pin 9, (A9). Monitoring the voltage at this point with a modern multimeter should show a steady change in voltage as the engine warms up, without random fluctuations. Due to the problem of making a connection without damaging the wiring you may not want to carry out this test.

In the UK we have a company called "Cartronix" who carry out instrument panel repairs. Perhaps you can find a similar company in Spain?

 

[Communicator]

If you still have the sensors that you replaced and that are working you could try do a testing. Identify which one communicates with the needle. On wormed up engine, disconnect one of the sensors connector and put the ignition on. The sensor communicating with the needle is the one that once disconnected makes the needle stay down when you turn the key on. Then connect the old sensor to that wire and do the testing with wormed up an hot water. Put the sensor in water, make it hotter and read the needle response, see if there is any dancing. If there is, the problem is on the electrical circuit. If needle doesn't dance, problem is not with the electrical circuit it's probably air in the system, I can't see what else could be in that case.

@Communicator, is there any relay on the needle circuit and could it produce this result when it is getting hot, if it went bad?

No!

 

[diego74]

Get a second hand dashboard, copy the eeprom data from the original to the new one, this makes a clone of your dashboard. I guess a proxi alignment with MultiScan also should work.

You can also backup the eeprom of the second one just in case, and you can swap eeproms phisically.

 

[Communicator]

Get a second hand dashboard, copy the eeprom data from the original to the new one, this makes a clone of your dashboard. I guess a proxi alignment with MultiScan also should work.

You can also backup the eeprom of the second one just in case, and you can swap eeproms phisically.

No again. On the x244, the instrument panel is not a node on the non existent canbus. It has discrete processing for the various analogue and digital inputs.

 

[MKUser]

Get a second hand dashboard, copy the eeprom data from the original to the new one, this makes a clone of your dashboard. I guess a proxi alignment with MultiScan also should work.

You can also backup the eeprom of the second one just in case, and you can swap eeproms phisically.

Hey...thanks a lot.
That's what I 've done a few minutes ago.
I don't know exactly how to clone the eeprom and agree help.
I think phisically swapping may be an easy solution.
I hope this will fix the problem.
Waiting for the one I bought...

 

[MKUser]

No again. On the x244, the instrument panel is not a node on the non existent canbus. It has discrete processing for the various analogue and digital inputs.

You mean, I can't change the dashboard?
I just bought one.

 

[MKUser]

No again. On the x244, the instrument panel is not a node on the non existent canbus. It has discrete processing for the various analogue and digital inputs.

Well, I've just cancelled the bought.
You mean even I buy a second hand dashboard from a Ducato 244 , from the same year of mine, putting my epprom, it won't work???

 

[Communicator]

Well, I've just cancelled the bought.
You mean even I buy a second hand dashboard from a Ducato 244 , from the same year of mine, putting my epprom, it won't work???

Sorry I was perhaps not precise enough. A second hand instrument panel should work in your vehicle, but it would show the donor vehicles total distance travelled. It could be a problem with your annual statutory inspection. I do not know whether the eeprom holding the data could be changed, but I would expect the task to have been made difficult in order to reduce "clocking" of vehicles. I would not rely on being able to change or reprgramme the eeprom. Perhaps someone with the expertise relative to the x244 could advise otherwise?
The x244 istrument panel is not a canbus node, as the x244 does not use a canbus. Proxy alignment is neither necessary or possible.

To me the repair option appears to the best route, but others may hold a different opinion.

 

[MKUser]

Sorry I was perhaps not precise enough. A second hand instrument panel should work in your vehicle, but it would show the donor vehicles total distance travelled. It could be a problem with your annual statutory inspection. I do not know whether the eeprom holding the data could be changed, but I would expect the task to have been made difficult in order to reduce "clocking" of vehicles. I would not rely on being able to change or reprgramme the eeprom. Perhaps someone with the expertise relative to the x244 could advise otherwise?
The x244 istrument panel is not a canbus node, as the x244 does not use a canbus. Proxy alignment is neither necessary or possible.

To me the repair option appears to the best route, but others may hold a different opinion.

Thanks for your opinion.
I'll search for a workshop for repairing the dashboard.