Technical Ducato 2020 engine turns but does not start.

[ZaphodB]

Next, I used starter fluid/spray. The engine shows signs of life, rumbles a bit but does not keep going. I have a few ignitions (although, they do sound muffled).

Getting the right dose to get continued running is an acquired skill, not too much, not too little. (You should be able to modulate/regulate your spray input to get it to run without the engine starter helping it to crank for a few seconds.

Another test crank with this would be helpful in eliminating stuff.

The reason I was asking is it getting any air is your cranking video on page one sounded like

You hear it almost start up for a couple of cylinders , but then mysteriously not..... as it can't get any more air

and the cause for that was


Your video was a bit short (and I'm not fully familiar with the ducato layout) to fully tell but.....

 

[varesecrazy]

Thank you!

I myself have not added a 2nd earth path to battery gnd. Is that something I should do? Or something I should inspect?

I think the reading for the common fuel rail pressure are reliable.
The readings for the low pressure pump were ok on the OBD2 tool, and confirmed when diesel squirted all over the mechanic when he disconnected the fuel line from the filter and asked me to crank the engine

Edit: could the earth strap be the issue? I'm a monkey with a wrench grasping for straws here. Usually when things are a bit mysterious, the gnd is related. Where can I find it?

Ok

So.. The Earth cable is something that CAN fail, and have a broad spread of potential effects


The fact the vehicle cut out while driving:

Fuel would be #1.., just about ruled out

Electrical, power to sensor and injectors #2, adding an earth won't hurt


Timing failure... Tricky...
Probability says NO.. But anything is possible



So, when the mechanic visited..

DID They use easystart/ add fuel..?

As they should know how much, and when, to do this

Or was this only your attempt.?

 

[fedupcamper]

Listened to the video on the first page again, and thought to myself is this engine actually getting any air ?

I think it is. Spraying the easy start/starter spray in the intake (after intake filter), gave the engine a short burst.
What should I look for on the OBD2?

 

[fedupcamper]

From a distance it looks as though you’re down the rabbit hole of random diagnosis.

The fact the timing belt was changed in January doesn’t confirm if all is well - if there was a significant amount of water sprayed into the air intake filling the air filter box whilst the engine was running at idle it’s entirely feasible for an engine to hydraulic lock once you accelerated away from the filling station, drawing said water into the engine. You even asked this question on page 1 of this thread. This needs ruling out.

Call me old fashioned, but If it was me I would start with all the basics that are required for an engine to run, as you have supplied it with an easy start that should in theory at least give a momentary burst of life, yet you say it didn’t properly fire up.
So…
Do the timing marks line up, yes or no?
Is the cam-train rotating when the engine is turned over.
Is there adequate compression in the cylinders?
Does live data show the MAF( have you considered unplugging the MAF so the ecu will drop to a generic AF map?),crank, cam and all temp sensors behaving properly?
Is fuel getting to the injectors.

Re the throttle pedal - most modern vehicles have the override ( click) segment- think of it like the old auto kick down cable. - it can override cruise control, speed limiters, cause auto box to gear down if needed.

How do I see that the timing marks line up? (mechanic that was here thought the engine sounded well and that the timing belt was ok, but that's just by listening).
Using the start spray, the engine did come to life for a short time, although it sounded a bit muffled.

Yes, I disconnected the MAF sensor and tried cranking, but nothing changed.
Temp sensors show reasonable values (i.e. same temp as outdoors, since the car's been standing for a long time now).

 

[ZaphodB]

Using the start spray, the engine did come to life for a short time, although it sounded a bit muffled.

The start spray is simply a substitute for fuel (if it's not injecting fuel for whatever reason), it will sound "different" because the start spray is the engine's only source of fuel at that moment, but if it ran on the spray it proves the timing is fine (or at least isn't that far off.)

If the engine dies shortly after you stop spraying, it means there is no normal fueling/injecting (for whatever reason)

 

[bugsymike]

I would like to know 100% that you have four good compressions, next that the reading of Common Rail pressure when cranking is ideally 250 Bar or above in what ever measure you use.
If Common Rail pressure is very low I would run a "Leak Off Test" from the four individual injector return pipes as if one injector is faulty then no injectors will reach operating pressure.
Apart from that a faulty pressure regulator can give similar issues.
So No.1 Four good compressions.
No.2 accurate Common Rail Pressure reading when engine cranking of 250 Bar plus.
I saw in one of your videos the rev counter moving so Crank Position Sensor should be OK .
The Camshaft position sensor I understand is critical at least for starting.

 

[Communicator]

I hesitate to add to the confusion. If we go back to the start of the problem, subsequent to refuelling and power washing of the windscreen, the engine appeared to run roughly and eventually stalled when in service. It has consistently refused to restart.

Initial suggestions including my own, considered the possibility of waster in the fuel. I believe that this has now been eliminated.

To get back to basics, a diesel engine needs air, fuel, and a minimum cranking speed above about 150rpm.

The engine seems to be firing, but will not run on easy start.

Like @ZaphodB whose recent link to a stuck throttle valve may be significant, from the video in post #10, I also think that there does not seem to be much compression when engine is cranked.

Removing the throttle body in the field may not be simple, but perhaps inspecting the air filter and perhaps the MAF sensor would be possible? Just one more thing to eliminate. I am assuming that the easy start was applied at the air filter inlet.

 

[fedupcamper]

Getting the right dose to get continued running is an acquired skill, not too much, not too little. (You should be able to modulate/regulate your spray input to get it to run without the engine starter helping it to crank for a few seconds.

Another test crank with this would be helpful in eliminating stuff.

The reason I was asking is it getting any air is your cranking video on page one sounded like (video)

You hear it almost start up for a couple of cylinders , but then mysteriously not..... as it can't get any more air

and the cause for that was (video)


Your video was a bit short (and I'm not fully familiar with the ducato layout) to fully tell but.....

Where would that be located on the Ducato 2020? If it's as easy as that i might have to change my username =).

 

[fedupcamper]

Ok

So.. The Earth cable is something that CAN fail, and have a broad spread of potential effects


The fact the vehicle cut out while driving:

Fuel would be #1.., just about ruled out

Electrical, power to sensor and injectors #2, adding an earth won't hurt


Timing failure... Tricky...
Probability says NO.. But anything is possible



So, when the mechanic visited..

DID They use easystart/ add fuel..?

As they should know how much, and when, to do this

Or was this only your attempt.?

No, it was only my attempt :/

 

[fedupcamper]

I hesitate to add to the confusion. If we go back to the start of the problem, subsequent to refuelling and power washing of the windscreen, the engine appeared to run roughly and eventually stalled when in service. It has consistently refused to restart.

Initial suggestions including my own, considered the possibility of waster in the fuel. I believe that this has now been eliminated.

To get back to basics, a diesel engine needs air, fuel, and a minimum cranking speed above about 150rpm.

The engine seems to be firing, but will not run on easy start.

Like @ZaphodB whose recent link to a stuck throttle valve may be significant, from the video in post #10, I also think that there does not seem to be much compression when engine is cranked.

Removing the throttle body in the field may not be simple, but perhaps inspecting the air filter and perhaps the MAF sensor would be possible? Just one more thing to eliminate. I am assuming that the easy start was applied at the air filter inlet.

I understand.
The air filter looks fresh and does not seem to be clogged or anything like that (also changed in January).
The MAF sensor was disconnected and I tried cranking, but it did not change anything unfortunately.
Yes, I opened up the air filter compartment and sprayed down into the hole.
I gave it two bursts of about half a second each and then cranked. Repeated the same procedure and had the same result (meaning no result).
I have not used start spray before, so I'm not sure how much is needed.
The start spray I got is made for diesel engines as well (with lubricants), but having read some horror stories perhaps I was a bit too cautious with it?

 

[ZaphodB]

I have not used start spray before, so I'm not sure how much is needed.
The start spray I got is made for diesel engines as well (with lubricants), but having read some horror stories perhaps I was a bit too cautious with it?

Erring on the side of "not enough" you spray just enough to maintain to get it to fire and run.
If you're not spraying enough it will stall..

You just need your wits about you to react quickly enough (with the spray) as the engine reacts back.
If the engine picks up , then maintain the spray just as it is, if it falters direct more spray into the intake, if it takes off on its own move the spray away from the intake.

If there is zero normal injection (from the diesel system) the spray is the engine's only form of fuel.

You should be able to modulate the amount of spray to feed the engine enough for it to get to at least idle speed and it should be firing on on cylinders if all that is wrong with the car is no diesel being injected.

Just takes practice and quick reactions moving the spray closer or further away.

 

[fedupcamper]

I would like to know 100% that you have four good compressions, next that the reading of Common Rail pressure when cranking is ideally 250 Bar or above in what ever measure you use.
If Common Rail pressure is very low I would run a "Leak Off Test" from the four individual injector return pipes as if one injector is faulty then no injectors will reach operating pressure.
Apart from that a faulty pressure regulator can give similar issues.
So No.1 Four good compressions.
No.2 accurate Common Rail Pressure reading when engine cranking of 250 Bar plus.
I saw in one of your videos the rev counter moving so Crank Position Sensor should be OK .
The Camshaft position sensor I understand is critical at least for starting.

I have not been able to confirm myself that there are four good compressions. The engine sounded good in the mechanics ears, that's about it =)

According to the OBD2 tool (cheapo BT version), the common rail pressure is about 560 bar (56 000 kPa) while cranking. I have no way of confirming this though.

 

[fedupcamper]

Erring on the side of "not enough" you spray just enough to maintain to get it to fire and run.
If you're spraying enough it will stall..

You just need your wits about you to react quickly enough (with the spray) as the engine reacts back.
If the engine picks up , then maintain the spray just as it is, if it falters direct more spray into the intake, if it takes off on its own move the spray away from the intake.

If there is zero normal injection (from the diesel system) the spray is the engine's only form of fuel.

You should be able to modulate the amount of spray to feed the engine enough for it to get to at least idle speed and it should be firing on on cylinders if all that is wrong with the car is no diesel being injected.

Just takes practice and quick reactions moving the spray closer or further away.

Thank you for the explanation!
I'll try that tomorrow!

 

[ZaphodB]

Thank you for the explanation!
I'll try that tomorrow!

You're in complete control of what gas/air mixture the engine gets as it starts to fire.... and it's a very delicate balance done on the fly.

Don't run it with gas for more than ten seconds or so, all the time you're concentrating on how much gas to squirt you're also listening for how well it's firing.
Unless it starts to run on diesel (by a stroke of luck the injection system wakes up) it's just a test of if the engine will run with this temporary alternative fuel.

Apologies I missed a crucial "not" to the sentence "If you're not spraying enough it will stall..", I've edited my original post now to include it lol

 

[AsdaPricey]

How do I see that the timing marks line up?

Sorry, I don’t have that information.
If you do decide to check them ,perhaps someone else on here can provide you with a diagram to assist?

 

[bugsymike]

Sorry, I don’t have that information.
If you do decide to check them ,perhaps someone else on here can provide you with a diagram to assist?

My AutoData Timing Belt book only goes up to 2012, I believe it is still the basically similar 2.3 engine, but obviously a long way from 2020, details below.
There are two timing tools one for the cam top pulley and the crank pulley one at bottom of belt.
No disrespect intended but I suspect even checking this will be outside of OPs "comfort zone".
Although as has been mentioned it is belt driven, at the other end of the cylinder head is a short cam chain driving the second camshaft, I would have thought pretty unlikely to be the cause as only a short chain so not highly stressed in normal use.
To add more confusion to the mix, on a Fiat Scudo 2.0 litre (Peugeot engine) the cam lobes are pressed on and under stress have been known to move out of position, I don't know if that method of cam design is used on the 2.3 Sofim engine.
Either way a good compression test would eliminate that line of diagnosis, confirm Common Rail fuel pressure on cranking and the "leak off " test for the injectors, although generally they don't cause engine failure whilst driving as OP experienced, more on starting initially.

 

[fedupcamper]

Getting the right dose to get continued running is an acquired skill, not too much, not too little. (You should be able to modulate/regulate your spray input to get it to run without the engine starter helping it to crank for a few seconds.

Another test crank with this would be helpful in eliminating stuff.

The reason I was asking is it getting any air is your cranking video on page one sounded like

You hear it almost start up for a couple of cylinders , but then mysteriously not..... as it can't get any more air

and the cause for that was


Your video was a bit short (and I'm not fully familiar with the ducato layout) to fully tell but.....

So I located the throttle valve. Here's an update:

When I detached the hose, I noticed there was a lot of black oil.

Tried looking inside and saw there was some build up, took a picture of that as well.

The flap does not move at all when ignition is on and the accelerator is being pressed down.

(beeping sound is my engine flatlining )

Flap is in fully open position all the time (did not try cranking).
The grime to me seems excessive to say the least =)
I really don't think it should look like this.
Does the flap move when ignition is on and the accelerator is being actuated? (vids on youtube show yes, but maybe not on all cars?)

 

[fedupcamper]

My AutoData Timing Belt book only goes up to 2012, I believe it is still the basically similar 2.3 engine, but obviously a long way from 2020, details below.
There are two timing tools one for the cam top pulley and the crank pulley one at bottom of belt.
No disrespect intended but I suspect even checking this will be outside of OPs "comfort zone".
Although as has been mentioned it is belt driven, at the other end of the cylinder head is a short cam chain driving the second camshaft, I would have thought pretty unlikely to be the cause as only a short chain so not highly stressed in normal use.
To add more confusion to the mix, on a Fiat Scudo 2.0 litre (Peugeot engine) the cam lobes are pressed on and under stress have been known to move out of position, I don't know if that method of cam design is used on the 2.3 Sofim engine.
Either way a good compression test would eliminate that line of diagnosis, confirm Common Rail fuel pressure on cranking and the "leak off " test for the injectors, although generally they don't cause engine failure whilst driving as OP experienced, more on starting initially.

lol yea, that's out of my comfort zone

Would the throttle valve in completely open position affect the compression?

 

[bugsymike]

lol yea, that's out of my comfort zone

Would the throttle valve in completely open position affect the compression?

If testing compression with a gauge , an open throttle will give highest reading.
When engine failed were you able to notice if and smoke from exhaust?

 

[AsdaPricey]

So I located the throttle valve. Here's an update:

When I detached the hose, I noticed there was a lot of black oil.
View attachment 472737

Tried looking inside and saw there was some build up, took a picture of that as well.View attachment 472738

The flap does not move at all when ignition is on and the accelerator is being pressed down.

(beeping sound is my engine flatlining )

Flap is in fully open position all the time (did not try cranking).
The grime to me seems excessive to say the least =)
I really don't think it should look like this.
Does the flap move when ignition is on and the accelerator is being actuated? (vids on youtube show yes, but maybe not on all cars?)

I thought the flap operated in completely the opposite to what is commonly perceived in that it is predominantly activated to the closed position when switching off the ignition, aiding the stopping of the engine by shutting off the airflow but returning to the open position ready to start the engine again - have I got that wrong?