Technical Tappetty noise between 3-4000RPM (Mk1 1.2 16v)

[nedge2k]

Odd one this, notice it when driving past things with the windows open, above 3000RPM it starts to sound really tappetty and it seems to go after about 4000RPM. It's got plenty of fresh oil....although it's cheapo 10w40 semi-synth that I've been running to clean out the old stuff before sticking some magnetec in.

Quick read about leads me to believe that the oil is the problem and that magnatec will make it worse.

Anyone used anything other than the Selenia 5w40? Such as the Carlube or Granville stuff? Or is Selenia really the only thing that should be used?

 

[nedge2k]

bump regarding the oil?

 

[thedigger]

Bumping an old thread here, but I get EXACTLY the same thing... if anything, my rattling starts a little earlier.

OP... did you sort this by changing the oil? What oil did you change it to?

 

[SouLz]

i get the exact same thing..

At around 4000RPM i get a noise that sounds like a churning thats loud, you can hear it over my induction kit..

Ony happens at that particular RPM range..

Any ideas?

 

[MikeSalt]

Any difference between a warm and cold engine, or are the symptoms persistent regardless of temperature?

 

[DaveMcT]

Does anyone know where the engine's vibration peak sits in the rev band? It might just be something loose that vibes in sympathy at around those revs.

Fresh oil might soften it for a few miles until the oil "wears in".

 

[thedigger]

Any difference between a warm and cold engine, or are the symptoms persistent regardless of temperature?

On mine it happens regardless of temperature. I thought it was originally something vibrating (initially thought it was the cat heat shield) but stumbled upon this thread (was searching for big end bearing failure to see if that sounded similar, saw a post saying "don't put Magnatec in a punto!", then found this thread). I put Magnatec in about 3 months ago, but I can't remember if that sound was present before changing to Magnatec (which, btw, is brilliant in my K-series MG)

@ Whitesei... I get a big "judder" of this sound at 2.5-3k revs... don't really notice it above that... maybe just because of increased engine noise/wind noise. Don't notice it at all with the windows closed. I've probably done 1k miles since the oil change (it's not used heavily) but I'd have thought that's enough for the oil to be worn in.

If it makes any difference, the car has high mileage (140k+). I'll try to get a recording of the sound later this evening to see if it's the same as the other guys here are getting

 

[MikeSalt]

I had a catalytic converter protector that rusted at the mountings and rattled terribly at about this level of RPM. Hit a breeze block in the middle of the road and it pulled the cover off, rattle solved...

...I should have been happy, but my two week old Yokohama s.drive hit the cover, causing an irrepairable punture. Damn!

 

[thedigger]

I had a catalytic converter protector that rusted at the mountings and rattled terribly at about this level of RPM. Hit a breeze block in the middle of the road and it pulled the cover off, rattle solved...

That was actually my first thought (had the cat rattling on other cars), so jacked it up, got some massive jubilee clips over the cat heat-shield, and fastened it tight. Made absolutely no difference


I'm giving serious consideration to changing the oil (we're selling the car sometime soon anyway as we need a 5-door), but I can't see a definitive answer for what to change to (it's an Mk1 8v 1.2 60). If it's duff oil causing the rattle, a can of Forte flush and new oil should sort it.

 

[MikeSalt]

but I can't see a definitive answer for what to change to (it's an Mk1 8v 1.2 60)

Ah, if itis the 60, the airbox is known to work itself loose and can rattle against the engine head causing a tappy noise. Check the clip at the front and the tightness of the bolts that hold it to the injection assembly.

As for what car to change it to, it depends what you want it for. If you are getting the extra doors for your children, please get a mk2. Just look at the difference in the stability of the passenger cell in these videos...

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG8R4Guin80"]YouTube- Euro NCAP | Fiat Punto | 1997 | Crash test[/nomedia]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG5FXSeLy_s"]YouTube- Euro NCAP | Fiat Punto | 2000 | Crash test[/nomedia]

 

[DaveMcT]

I really think the stuff about Magnatec is a www virus/old wive's tale and the stuff is actually ok. How could it possibly be great in a Rover and harmful in a Fiat. leave the oil, Im sure its fine.

Big ends are noisy at low revs like tickover and sound like a rumble from the bottom of the engine. The noise goes away when its revved.

If a conrod suddenly pops through the side of your engine you'll know it was a big end.

 

[thedigger]

Ah, if itis the 60, the airbox is known to work itself loose and can rattle against the engine head causing a tappy noise. Check the clip at the front and the tightness of the bolts that hold it to the injection assembly.

As for what car to change it to, it depends what you want it for. If you are getting the extra doors for your children, please get a mk2. Just look at the difference in the stability of the passenger cell in these videos...

YouTube- Euro NCAP | Fiat Punto | 1997 | Crash test

YouTube- Euro NCAP | Fiat Punto | 2000 | Crash test

Cheers for the advice

We were going to get something a little bigger than a Punto (plus my wife doesn't particularly like the way they look in a 5-door anyway... odd seeing as she absolutely loves her 3dr 60), so looking at a Rover 25 or maybe a Pug 307.

I'll check the airbox clip, it sounds too loud for it to be that (and the sound seems to be resonating from under the car, whereas that clip is fairly high, just above the manifold IIRC)

 

[thedigger]

I really think the stuff about Magnatec is a www virus/old wive's tale and the stuff is actually ok. How could it possibly be great in a Rover and harmful in a Fiat. leave the oil, Im sure its fine.

Big ends are noisy at low revs like tickover and sound like a rumble from the bottom of the engine. The noise goes away when its revved.

If a conrod suddenly pops through the side of your engine you'll know it was a big end.

Argh, now you've got me thinking big end again. I probably should have checked exactly what part of the engine/exhaust is making the noise (just don't like the idea of the engine running while I'm under the car for some reason :? ). When you say bottom of the engine, do you mean basically where the sump is?

I assume rattly big ends = engine is knackered?

 

[MikeSalt]

so looking at a Rover 25 or maybe a Pug 307.

I don't think you can go far wrong with the Rover 25 since it was built when Rover were using mostly Honda-sourced parts. It got expensive to own when Caterpillar were making the parts, but the think the parts tender went to a company in China, and so they are not ridiculously priced anymore.

Didn't score as well as the mk2 Punto in the crash tests though.

 

[thedigger]

I don't think you can go far wrong with the Rover 25 since it was built when Rover were using mostly Honda-sourced parts. It got expensive to own when Caterpillar were making the parts, but the think the parts tender went to a company in China, and so they are not ridiculously priced anymore.

Didn't score as well as the mk2 Punto in the crash tests though.

You get a lot of car for your money with them (1500 or so for a 5-6 year old car with full leather trim, AC, etc), plus my Mrs actually likes them (they look like a baby version of my dad's 75). It's more hers than mine, I still get to play with my MGF (hopefully).
Parts seem reasonable enough for my MG, and I have a massive scrappers down the road who keep a decent stock of MG/R stuff.

Wasn't planning on crashing either car, but might crash the 60S if the engine's on the way out and it's unsellable :idea:

(I jest before you all phone the police/insurance people... wouldn't fancy a crash in one of them now! )

 

[MikeSalt]

No need to take such drastic action (I know you were jesting anyway). Your car is worth the same regardless of whether the engine is working or not. If the engine works, great, sell it as it is. If it doesn't strip it and sell the parts for similar money. Just make sure you make an extra £50 to pay for shell removal at the end.

 

[DaveMcT]

The Rover is an older design than the Mk1 Punto. The Fiat Punto Mk2 gets a 4star rating in Euro NCAP. The Rover will struggle to one star. The Rover will also be badly built and a problem for spares.

As for looks the 4 door Fiat is still better than the 25.

Can you tell I think the 25 would be a mistake.

As for the 307... What!!!
If you need space, get a Ford Galaxy diesel and accept it wont go or handle but at least it will carry loads of stuff and be reliable.

 

[thedigger]

This isn't a car for "go-ing" really... wifey only passed her test a year ago so her insurance premiums are still pretty high (no 3-series or anything with decent power output).

I quite like the 5 door mk2 punto, but she doesn't like the look of it with rear doors and it's primarily her car. I think she'd also like something different, although there are few cars as easy to drive as a punto in my experience.

Btw, it was dark when I got home tonight (summer's over already?? ) so I didn't get round to checking where the noise is coming from. I'll try again tomorrow and report back.

 

[SouLz]

The noise i hear.. doesnt matter if the car is hot or cold. It ca n do it when the engine is just on, or when im driving later.

It sounds like clashing of some sort, not as such a tappy noise.

It cant be the air filter lose as ive got an induction kit on it which is using jubalee clips and there tight as hell.. its solid.

Only thing i can think of it sounds like is bolts spinning around.. but ive checked for loose bolts and cant find any..

But if it was wouldnt they spin all the time and not at a specific range of RPM..

Confused :\

Wantto get it sorted as you can hear it quite bad, and i always hear it as i know its there..

Alec

 

[DaveMcT]

You'll have to ask a mechanic who knows these engines.

One thought though for the techies - is it possible for the ignition timing to be advanced making the engine knock/pink (preignition noise = pinking0?