Technical Steering and other dash lights

[JLP]

Thanks JR, and a supplimentary query...I assume then that the intermitent problem would have shown up on the code reader even if the warning light wasn't constantly on?

Oh and 5:10pm and they haven't got back to me as promised, even though I specifically asked when he would call me back

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Would not nessecarily come up on a generic fault reader, but would on a Fiat code reader or using the fiatecuscan / multiecuscan software.

Keep us up to date with the vehicle return. I can't believe they're being so awkward about it. Is it just a one man band garage or a franchise out if interest?

 

[JLP]

They are a big big dealership with quite a number of large sites with each site holding quite a few different franchises...everything from Jag to Hyundia.

Sales manager just called...told me he didn't know who was giving me legal advice but that they didn't know what they were talking about and that under the law all they are obliged to do is fix it.

He's also stating that the fault wasn't present when I bought the car. I told him that my research suggests that the fault would have been present and the light intermitent before the light stayed on constantly...he rubbished this saying if the fault was there they'd have picked it up and sorted it. Mind you citizens advice site states that if a fault occurs shortly after purchase it is assumed to have been present when purchased!!! He rubbished that too.

I know you (MEP) said Torque sensor and when I called a Fiat dealership to ask for a quote on price(£673 btw), the guy in their service department said "Steering light on, your torque sensor gone!?"...so I'm a little curious as to why the manager kept saying angle sensor!!!

He also says that even though its quite an expensive fix its not a difficult fix and certainly doesnt cost anything like the £700 I quoted (wanted to know where I got my figures from1) and insisted that it is not a major fault.

Angle sensor/torque sensor? any thoughts?

Anyway I'm really interested to know if the fault would have showed up even if the warning light was intermitent...going to see if I can find number for last owner and see if they were aware of it.

 

[jrkitching]

Angle sensor/torque sensor? any thoughts?

Two ways of describing the same thing. The sensor actually detects the difference in angle between the steering input shaft and the steering output shaft, which is an indirect measure of the torque.

I did notice the last time I got into the car it didn't come on until I drove off?

If you are serious about rejecting the car you must not continue to use it, or you may be deemed to have accepted it.

 

[JLP]

Thanks JR...these small details are good to know if this goes all the way to small claims court.

 

[JLP]

If you are serious about rejecting the car you must not continue to use it, or you may be deemed to have accepted it.

I haven't driven it since bringing it back from the dealers after being told it needed a sensor. Sorry I've driven it once, to move it from one side of the street to in front of my house which is when I noticed the light went out, until that is, I engaged gear and moved the car.

I've done everything consumer advice has said. I notified them immediately I was aware it required a new steering column. I emailed them stating that I rejected the car and wanted a full refund. I've rejected any notion of a fix and told them I would not have purchased the car at any price if I'd known about the fault.

His stand point seems to be
1 I have no rights under law to a refund.
2 The fault was not present when I purchased the car.
3 Its not a major fault.

Oh a 4. Do what I like as they aren't taking the car back!

 

[homeward]

Have you called your local Trading Standards office...?

They're not as powerful or as well-staffed as they used to be: but might be able to apply some pressure for you.... They might also know if said dealer has a history of doing similar things....

 

[hollis]

Hi


I am not sure you have a claim against them. If you checked the car over by the way of a test drive, because you then relied on your judgement rather than that of the seller as to the fitness of the car.
Your loss is the cost to correct the fault and if the garage does this I cannot see how you can ask them to take the car back. You agreed to the warranty and this is there to correct certain faults as they occur.

Just a point before too many members jump up and say I am wrong I have actually studied the law of contract.
Derek

 

[JLP]

Hi


I am not sure you have a claim against them. If you checked the car over by the way of a test drive, because you then relied on your judgement rather than that of the seller as to the fitness of the car.
Your loss is the cost to correct the fault and if the garage does this I cannot see how you can ask them to take the car back. You agreed to the warranty and this is there to correct certain faults as they occur.

Just a point before too many members jump up and say I am wrong I have actually studied the law of contract.
Derek

No light was present when I had a test drive. And everything I have read states that firstly as a lay person I can not be expected to know the car has a serious mechanical problem that isn't obvious. And secondly if a fault develops shortly after purchase it will be assumed to have been present at time of purchase...this is true even after six months never mind 3 days if it is not reasonable to have expected it to fail.

If they argue that due to age and miles on car esp failure could be expected then I can argue that they never disclosed that to me when I bought it and if they had disclosed it I would have walked away whether or not they told me they'd fix it under warranty.

My reading of consumer law is that if a car develops a serious fault up to 3 - 4 weeks after purchase (according to Which) and you inform them that you reject the car, stop using it and demand a full refund, you are pretty much entitled to the refund. We aren't talking 3 - 4 weeks here we are talking 3 - 4 days and maybe 30 miles. I could accept the free fix they have offered but quite frankly that is not acceptable to me. If its producing £700 bills in 3 days and 30 miles what's it going to do after 3 weeks, or 3 months. I paid £2295 6 six months tax to have a reliable well sourced car from a major major dealership with multiple franchises. Not for something I'm going to be leaving back every week as it falls apart.

 

[JLP]

Okay after a little more research into appeal case law I think i'll have to accept the fix. Not happy about it but I may be on a hiding to nothing and weeks of headache to get nowhere.

Appeal Court Case law (Bernstein v Palmerston Motors 1987) has held that the supplier must be given three chances to rectify the fault for which the goods are rejected and must have failed to do so."

However on further reading

The Supreme Court verdict in (Clegg v Olle Anderson 2013)... has held that Clegg could reject the yacht at more than 6 months from date of purchase even though Mr Anderson had offered to make modifications to try to correct the fault. Basically, because the yacht had originally been supplied "of unsatisfactory quality" .

Though

For Clegg v Olle Anderson to apply to other cases, it must be proven that the fault existed on the date of sale and constituted a breach of the original purchase contract.

Clegg v Olle Anderson cannot apply where a fault develops at some time after purchase. (now that I think is at the crux of my case) In those cases, Bernstein v Palmerston Motors 1987 still applies and the dealer has to be given three clear chances to rectify the problem. (EPS warning light constantly on after 3 days and 30 miles of ownership - It is my understanding that in law it will be assumed that it was present on date of purchase. From what I've been told on here the fault would have been intermitent up to that point and a proper diagnostic inspection using the correct equipment would have alerted the dealer to the fault)

And my understanding that the fault was present comes from this:

The Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, is derived from EU Directive 1999/44/EU which became Clauses 48A to 48F inclusive of the Sale of Goods act in April 2003. This reverses the burden of proof so that if goods go faulty within six months after purchase it is deemed they were faulty at the time of purchase and the trader has the onus of proving that the item is not defective due to a manufacturing defect.

And as I've mentioned before consumer advice website states that the dealers own pre sale check list filled with ticks will not be accepted by the courts as proof the fault was not present on the date of sale. They would have had to had it independently checked.

So although I started this thread rather despondent. By the end of it I'm feeling quite confident

 

[JLP]

I'd like to get an official response from Fiat (as quickly as possible) regarding the EPS sensor fault. If I can get an official response stating that the sensor would have gradually failed resulting in the warning light coming on intermitently and that it would have shown up on a code reader at the intermitent stage, then theres nothing the dealer can present that can prove otherwise.

I tried emailing them via Fiat Automobile site but nothing happens when I click submit.

Anyone know the fastest way to get a response from them?

 

[jrkitching]

JLP

It appears from all that has been posted here that the selling dealer is not going to offer to take the car back. You now have to decide whether to make peace with the dealer and get the best repair you can, or to fight in the Courts for a refund.

Before taking the latter course of action, think carefully about the stress and hassle of doing this. If the dealer digs their heels in and refuses to accept its return, it will cost you a minimum of £285 to put the case before a Judge (though you'll get this back if your claim is successful). Even if you win, it will be at least 4-6 months before you see any money, so you will need to buy your daughter another car out of your own pocket if she wants to be driving before then. If you lose, then as well as losing another £285, any warranty you have on the car will likely have run out before you even start using it.

In the eyes of the Court, resorting to legal action must be a last resort. You will need to show that you have done everything possible to resolve this with the supplying dealer before you can start proceedings. If the dealer is offering a repair, the outcome is not clear cut, since a Court may decide you have been unreasonable in refusing to accept the repair and throw your case out. You do still have statutory rights when purchasing secondhand, but a Court will take into account the age of the car and the price you paid for it - you cannot rely on case law appertaining to new goods.

I'll just add that I have in the past taken a company to Court to obtain my statutory rights, and so speak from personal experience. My case was far stronger than yours, and I did win in the end, but despite being successful, I was left wondering whether the game was worth the candle.

If you really don't want the car anymore, pragmatically your best course of action might be to get it repaired, sell it privately, put the loss down to experience and move on. Otherwise you'll spend the next six months with the unfairness of this eating away at you in the background, and that's not healthy for anyone.

Whatever you decide, I'm sorry to hear of your plight and hope you find the best solution you can.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

JLP, have you got legal expenses cover on your home insurance? If so that'll normally cover you for consumer disputes (depending upon who your insured with).

 

[JLP]

JLP

It appears from all that has been posted here that the selling dealer is not going to offer to take the car back. You now have to decide whether to make peace with the dealer and get the best repair you can, or to fight in the Courts for a refund. I sent a letter recorded delivery this morning invoking the sale of goods act, rejecting the car and requesting that he make arrangements to pick it up and refund me in full.

Before taking the latter course of action, think carefully about the stress and hassle of doing this. If the dealer digs their heels in and refuses to accept its return, it will cost you a minimum of £285 to put the case before a Judge (though you'll get this back if your claim is successful)It is £100 for small claims court in N Ireland. Even if you win, it will be at least 4-6 months before you see any money, Cases are listed within 3 - 4 weeks. so you will need to buy your daughter another car out of your own pocket if she wants to be driving before then. She doesn't turn 17 until June and its not her car, just one I can afford to insure her on If you lose, then as well as losing another £285, any warranty you have on the car will likely have run out before you even start using it. I'll lose the £100 however the garage would still be directed to fix the car under warranty.

In the eyes of the Court, resorting to legal action must be a last resort. You will need to show that you have done everything possible to resolve this with the supplying dealer before you can start proceedings. I've been on the phone 3 times with them and emailed them. Today I have also done them the curtousey of writing to them again, even though the manager told me not to bother as I was wasting my time: I already had his answer! If the dealer is offering a repair, the outcome is not clear cut, since a Court may decide you have been unreasonable in refusing to accept the repair and throw your case out. I am entitled to refuse the repair and entitled to a full refund. You do still have statutory rights when purchasing secondhand, but a Court will take into account the age of the car and the price you paid for it - you cannot rely on case law appertaining to new goods. The case law is as relevant to secondhand cars as it is to new boats. I paid £2295 for a car with a top Parkers guide of £1900. The main legislation that entitles me is that the car was not of satisfactory quality did not last a reasonable time and is therefore in breach of the terms laid down in the sale of goods act 1979 as amended. He was in breach of contract from the moment he sold it to me.

I'll just add that I have in the past taken a company to Court to obtain my statutory rights, and so speak from personal experience. My case was far stronger than yours, and I did win in the end, but despite being successful, I was left wondering whether the game was worth the candle. Time will tell. I was speaking to a Which Legal Services lawyer this morning.

If you really don't want the car anymore, pragmatically your best course of action might be to get it repaired, sell it privately, put the loss down to experience and move on. Otherwise you'll spend the next six months with the unfairness of this eating away at you in the background, and that's not healthy for anyone. With all due respect, I'm no ones puppy I don't lie down or roll over for anyone...well other than my daughter I guess

Whatever you decide, I'm sorry to hear of your plight and hope you find the best solution you can.

Many thanks Guys.

According to Which Solicitor it doesn't really matter if the defect is large or small, though she states that no judge is likely to accept that replacing a steering column is a minor fault. She made me dumb down my letter though. She said the case law I was quoting was correct, my interpretation of it was correct, and where I stand within it was correct, but if it does end up in the small claims court a judge may read it and suspect that I'm legally trained which according to her can work against you in the small claims court. Apparently it read like it had been drafted by a solicitor. So she dictated a much simplified letter for me to send saying you have to appear like an ordinary Joe Bloggs making an application and not someone who can quote and interpret case law...Yeeh Me

So Its (no Fiat) Monte Carlo or the repair, but without wanting to tempt Fiat I mean fate...I'm if not confident, reassured enough that my case will stand up

 

[JLP]

JLP, have you got legal expenses cover on your home insurance? If so that'll normally cover you for consumer disputes (depending upon who your insured with).

Not sure to be honest but it's a £100 one off payment for small claims court.

MEP, or was it JR!...anyway how confident are you that the warning light would have been intermitent before finally coming on and staying on...it probably wont feature in the case because if the assumption the fault was presnt at purchase can last up to 6 months, seems a no brainer that it was present after only 3 days.

It would be reassuring to know that in all likelihood it was preceded by an intermitent stage just to kill their argument that the car developed the fault after I bought it...because that really is the crux of the case

 

[jrkitching]

Not sure to be honest but it's a £100 one off payment for small claims court.

The initial payment will only cover the Court's costs up to the pre-allocation phase. If the dealer defends your claim, you will also have to pay an allocation fee (£40) and a hearing fee (£165) before the case will be heard. A detailed list of Court fees can be obtained here.

You'll get the fees included in your settlement if you win.

Edit: Have just noticed the OP is in Northern Ireland, where different arrangements and fees apply. I have no knowledge of the Court system in NI and cannot advise on that.

Bearing in mind today's economic climate, be aware also that if the dealership should go out of business before everything is settled, you could end up receiving nothing even if you win.

Tbh, I think the real issue is not so much the strength of your case, as your stomach for pursuing this claim to the bitter end. Do not underestimate what is involved. But if you are determined, it certainly can be done.

 

[JLP]

it's a different system here in northern ireland. you pay a one off fee of £100, returnable if you win. if after you serve notice and have paid the £100 and the dealer decides to settle he must include the £100 in his settlement, otherwise you simply carry on with the case and the judge will instruct them to include it. There's a limit of £3000 here as opposed to £5000 in England for small claims, which may account for the difference in the fee involved.

 

[JLP]

Edit: Have just noticed the OP is in Northern Ireland, where different arrangements and fees apply. I have no knowledge of the Court system in NI and cannot advise on that.


Tbh, I think the real issue is not so much the strength of your case, as your stomach for pursuing this claim to the bitter end. Do not underestimate what is involved. But if you are determined, it certainly can be done.

Yes I'm in Norn Iron or should I say "Flags 'R' Us" eace:
You are right JR and I do understand what is involved. I've spent the last two days surfing the internet for case law and guidance and technical knowledge. Trying to cover all eventualities. I have drafted, and redrafted letters. I was in bed for 12 last night. Tossed and turned to 2am, back up at 6am. on the phone to Which Legal Services by 8:30am. I've taken 2 days off work to consider everything and satisfy myself that the action I take is as right as I can possibly determine.

I've exprience of Family Court, County Court and High Court where the stakes where alot higher than a refund or £100 fee. I actually rather enjoyed(probably too much) the verbal and intelectual dual that you get involved in with the other sides barrister whilst on the stand. There's a perverse pleasure gained by knowing you just shot down a professional arguers argument and when you get to do it two or three times on the trot...well it's bit of a buzz. But you are right it is still very stressful.

Small Claims Court will be a first for me and could well be my downfall but I refuse to move from the position that the car was sold to me with a major fault already present at time of purchase in breach of the sale of goods act, and in breach of the original purchase contract...and as clegg v andersen has shown. If the trader was in breach of the sale of goods act when the purchase was made by selling you something defective, you can claim a full refund after the normal 6 month period has passed and you don't have to give the seller an opportunity to fix it.

 

[JLP]

I moved the car to a locked garage yesterday thinking I was doing the right thing for both parties under my duty of care. I thought it would be a simple case of informing my insurance company of the change. It's not, well it was. I informed them, and they cancelled the insurance policy with immediate effect as they are unable to provide cover. I'm now discovering that insuring a car not parked at my address and that is not being driven isn't as straight forward or cheap as one might think.

The firm should have my recorded delivery letter by now and will hopefully drop the bluster and bravado shortly. Meanwhile I think I'll send them an email today stating I've placed the car in a locked facility and informed my insurance company who cancelled my insurance with immediate effect. But first I'll see if I can get a few quotes for insurance purposes and include them. If what I read on MSE forum is anything to go by the daily rate may be surprisingly high. Will be clarifying situation with Which Legal Services first thing Monday morning. It never rains but it pours!

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Who were you insured with