Technical Starter Motor woes

[Timpanda7]

You will have to raise the car enough to be able to 'half.sit' in the space between engine and bulkhead (passenger area)

Remind us what brought you to need starter access

Hi and thanks,
I'm gaining starter access in order to trouble shoot my issue. Could be a number of things I know, (Earth, Ignition, Generator, Corroded Wires) if I can get this starter off can test it away from the car. Scared I will stuff something up testing it with no access.


If I slide blocks under my car (no tripods) is under the wheels a good place?
Thank you!

 

[Timpanda7]

Never tried from underneath. But there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't jacking the car up and do it all from the top. In fact you cant reach the back bolt if you do jack the car up without very long arm. One bolt is easy. The other goes from the back so isn't visible but has plenty of space around it to put a socket on by touch.

Hardest part is normally taking the plastic covers of the back of the starter motor.


Done a few on the road and in the breakers. It is a 5 minuet job or less when you know the knack.


But probably safer to disconnect the wires from underneath though.

Hi Koalar,

5 minutes, I did that on a 2000 Subaru but this Panda (for me) "no way!"

Could you please tell me:- There is just 2 bolts? and mine seems to have a black rectangle box (5cm) over where the cables attach to the solenoid. Does that box unclip or something else to reveal the cable nuts?

Obviously I'm not a mechanic, just someone in a bit of a fix.
Thank you

 

[koalar]

yes just two bolts. I have a spare one here give me 5 minutes I will dig it out and take a photo. Yes the cover over the cables is a pain and clipped.

Unfortunately I have just thrown a cover away about a month or so back. As far as I remember I just used large screwdriver

 

[koalar]

the bolts are opposite each other imagine a circle the be 180 degrees apart

Also one bolts from one side the other from the other


I take the motor off and tie up to work on the back. I would not recommend doing this as if it drops I would damage the smaller cable

 

[Timpanda7]

the bolts are opposite each other imagine a circle the be 180 degrees apart

Also one bolts from one side the other from the other


I take the motor off and tie up to work on the back. I would not recommend doing this as if it drops I would damage the smaller cable

Koala, you did a good thing to go to this trouble, well done...! Your photos and knowledge are very helpful, I'm sure others will benefit from this also. You have made something very difficult an easier task.


I hope I can remove this starter motor with my limited tools (just a simple socket set). You said it can be done. I will try my best.


Thank you.

 

[DaveMcT]

Before you remove the starter, fit a voltmeter that's wired to any ignition controlled circuit. Ideally one that's stays on when starter is turning. That will allow you to diagnose battery, earth and generator issues.

 

[Timpanda7]

Many thanks to those who helped me to remove this starter motor, now I can do it in around 5 minutes.


I have cleaned and tested the starter motor, including a test wired up next to the flywheel opening and the starter works as it should work.


However, when I put the starter back in place it does not turn over the flywheel... I just hear a rrrrrr (slight turn of flywheel). I am concerned that the motor is partly locked up or the starter is under performing.
Car has a brand new battery and also new spark plugs.


Any ideas?
Thank you in advance!

 

[jackwhoo]

Many thanks to those who helped me to remove this starter motor, now I can do it in around 5 minutes.


I have cleaned and tested the starter motor, including a test wired up next to the flywheel opening and the starter works as it should work.


However, when I put the starter back in place it does not turn over the flywheel... I just hear a rrrrrr (slight turn of flywheel). I am concerned that the motor is partly locked up or the starter is under performing.
Car has a brand new battery and also new spark plugs.


Any ideas?
Thank you in advance!

Attach jump lead to battery - ve attach other end of lead to clean part of engine or gearbox. Try to start if it starts better then you have ground lead from battery problems.

Forgive me if you have tried this already.

Jack

 

[Timpanda7]

Attach jump lead to battery - ve attach other end of lead to clean part of engine or gearbox. Try to start if it starts better then you have ground lead from battery problems.

Forgive me if you have tried this already.

Jack

Hi Jack, thanks!


I tried that this afternoon and even attached a jump lead from the starter body including all over the place to check for an earth problem. Still the same rrrrr turn sound of the starter underperforming.


The more I research the more depressed I'm getting as it could be Air conditioner locked up stopping the belt from turning or a number of other things like the ignition... Don't want to go to a garage because as we know £500 later could be back in the same place again.

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi Jack, thanks!


I tried that this afternoon and even attached a jump lead from the starter body including all over the place to check for an earth problem. Still the same rrrrr turn sound of the starter underperforming.


The more I research the more depressed I'm getting as it could be Air conditioner locked up stopping the belt from turning or a number of other things like the ignition... Don't want to go to a garage because as we know £500 later could be back in the same place again.

Remove auxiliary belt and try, if starts you have problem with something belt driven.

After trying to start feel battery terminals and leads and connections. If you find a very hot point, don't get burnt , you have found a fault.

 

[Timpanda7]

Yes, you are right.. was just researching at how to do this when you replied. There seems no information on this site.

My Panda belt looks very difficult to loosen or to remove, quite a mystery!
On other cars this has been very easy to remove, replace and tighten the belt.

Thanks

 

[koalar]

if the car is on level ground you can put it in 5th gear and release the handbrake. Then push the car while watching the belt.

be very careful if there's any slop it can easy get away from you. Much safer if there's two of you as one can sit in the car ready to brake

There is some resistance as it compressing the air in the cylinders as you don't need to take the spark plugs out for this. I normally push the bumper with my knee and pull with my arms to give it a slight rocking. You can quite gently get it to turn over once to check for resistance.


if you hold the key does it Brr then stop or continue to Brr.


Try turning the key firmly to the end then very slowly release the pressure.

 

[jackwhoo]

Yes, you are right.. was just researching at how to do this when you replied. There seems no information on this site.

My Panda belt looks very difficult to loosen or to remove, quite a mystery!
On other cars this has been very easy to remove, replace and tighten the belt.

Thanks

Ok try and turn crankshaft pulley using a socket , gearbox in neutral, if you can't turn it then possible something driven belt seized.

 

[DaveMcT]

To reach the crankshaft and belt pulleys, you will need to remove inner wheel arcj and a small cover over the inner panel. It s a poor design as all these parts are a nightmare to refit but I guess the apprentice had to be given something to do.

When you get in there, air con cars have a tensioner on the aux belt. Non Aircon use the alternator bracket to tension the belt.

 

[Timpanda7]

if the car is on level ground you can put it in 5th gear and release the handbrake. Then push the car while watching the belt.

be very careful if there's any slop it can easy get away from you. Much safer if there's two of you as one can sit in the car ready to brake

There is some resistance as it compressing the air in the cylinders as you don't need to take the spark plugs out for this. I normally push the bumper with my knee and pull with my arms to give it a slight rocking. You can quite gently get it to turn over once to check for resistance.


if you hold the key does it Brr then stop or continue to Brr.


Try turning the key firmly to the end then very slowly release the pressure.

Hi Koalar,

I did the things you said but it was too difficult to push even in 5th gear, it moved slightly so I took out the spark plugs and the Brrrrrr rrrr rrr was much longer so I gather the motor is not seized.

So... hmmm so tell me if I'm wrong... I'm thinking that the starter motor although it works as it should it is very under powered... One thing I noticed when I pulled it apart there was no sensation of the magnets when the main moving part is inserted...

Thanks
Tim

 

[Timpanda7]

Ok try and turn crankshaft pulley using a socket , gearbox in neutral, if you can't turn it then possible something driven belt seized.

Very hard to get to that area as DaveMct described but I removed the spark plugs and the Brrrr sound of the starter was longer than it has been so there is movement in the motor so it could be the starter has become weak... working but underpowered...

Thanks for your support
Tim

 

[koalar]

there's a clutch built into the starter motor.

if you turn the gear in one direction it will just spin

the other direction is difficult and should wind up the helix if you have very strong fingers or use a screwdriver.

its hard to describe a sound. Be helpful if you could post on YouTube.

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi Koalar,

I did the things you said but it was too difficult to push even in 5th gear, it moved slightly so I took out the spark plugs and the Brrrrrr rrrr rrr was much longer so I gather the motor is not seized.

So... hmmm so tell me if I'm wrong... I'm thinking that the starter motor although it works as it should it is very under powered... One thing I noticed when I pulled it apart there was no sensation of the magnets when the main moving part is inserted...

Thanks
Tim

It likely does n not have permanent magnets but rather has electro magnets, so magnetic field only when energised.

 

[jackwhoo]

Very hard to get to that area as DaveMct described but I removed the spark plugs and the Brrrr sound of the starter was longer than it has been so there is movement in the motor so it could be the starter has become weak... working but underpowered...

Thanks for your support
Tim

Call me silly but is battery fully charged and not faulty. Brrr noise can be solenoid operating , which then causes battery voltage drop, which causes solenoid to stop working, which causes battery voltage to go up, which causes solenoid to operate, which causes battery voltage to drop etc etc etc

 

[Timpanda7]

Call me silly but is battery fully charged and not faulty. Brrr noise can be solenoid operating , which then causes battery voltage drop, which causes solenoid to stop working, which causes battery voltage to go up, which causes solenoid to operate, which causes battery voltage to drop etc etc etc

It is that rrr rrr noise as if the battery is almost flat.
The battery was bought new just 3 weeks ago when I could first get a new battery in 'lockdown'.

It is on the charger now because all the attempted starting has dropped it down a bit. Usually it is around 12.7 V

Thanks
Tim