Tuning Sluggish in 3rd gear

[Deemoandy]

Not sure if I’m over thinking this but panda is sluggish in 3rd gear up hills. Nothing to steep but drop down from 4th and there’s nothing there.. had new clutch, plugs, ht leads, crank case hose. Also had throttle housing off and cleaned it up and also air sensors, but still flat up hills.. is this normal or shall I move on to changing coil packs.. not had it long, had it cheap as a run around but was expecting more..

 

[irc]

(As @Mike1alike says, its not really a conventional "O" ring, but its called an "O-Ring" in my Fiat parts list, so that's why its in quotes.)
Leaks here are the cause of oil deposits because (so I'm told!) they allow the air speed to drop so that the oil doesn't make it as far as it needs to to get burnt by the engine. Instead it ends up all over the throttle body and surroundings, including the MAP sensor.
Manifold air leaks will cause running problems too, but not oil deposits.

 

[Mike1alike]

MAP sensor sits inside manifold. What's actually causing oil deposits is oil getting there. It shouldn't. It does due to improper lubrication and/or improper cooling. Malfunction of the lubrication system (oil pump, oil channels) leads to overheated parts of the engine, usually mostly in the upper side. And when oil touches those parts (cause oil still gets there, just not with the needed flow rate) it kind of burnes and oil vapors are transported inside intake manifold and deposits everywhere.
Usually, the problem there starts with the oil channel inside CH cover. Because everything gets hot when the engine is running and that channel sits horizontal. And residual oil that sits there after turning the engine off gets sticky inside that channel. So it makes little layer by little layer that eventually can clogg that channel almost completely. That takes time to happen of course and when that happens the engine will consume oil because channel clogged leads to no/improper lubrication and overheating which lead to valves seals damage that lets oil get into the combustion chambers. So good maintenance is to clean the inside of that channel and make sure it has good flow rate. Also, make sure that the oil pump delivers oil with enough pressure.

 

[Deemoandy]

(As @Mike1alike says, its not really a conventional "O" ring, but its called an "O-Ring" in my Fiat parts list, so that's why its in quotes.)
Leaks here are the cause of oil deposits because (so I'm told!) they allow the air speed to drop so that the oil doesn't make it as far as it needs to to get burnt by the engine. Instead it ends up all over the throttle body and surroundings, including the MAP sensor.
Manifold air leaks will cause running problems too, but not oil deposits.

Thanks guys.. got loads to look at, thanks for the advice. Will let u know how I get on

MAP sensor sits inside manifold. What's actually causing oil deposits is oil getting there. It shouldn't. It does due to improper lubrication and/or improper cooling. Malfunction of the lubrication system (oil pump, oil channels) leads to overheated parts of the engine, usually mostly in the upper side. And when oil touches those parts (cause oil still gets there, just not with the needed flow rate) it kind of burnes and oil vapors are transported inside intake manifold and deposits everywhere.
Usually, the problem there starts with the oil channel inside CH cover. Because everything gets hot when the engine is running and that channel sits horizontal. And residual oil that sits there after turning the engine off gets sticky inside that channel. So it makes little layer by little layer that eventually can clogg that channel almost completely. That takes time to happen of course and when that happens the engine will consume oil because channel clogged leads to no/improper lubrication and overheating which lead to valves seals damage that lets oil get into the combustion chambers. So good maintenance is to clean the inside of that channel and make sure it has good flow rate. Also, make sure that the oil pump delivers oil with enough pressure.

is there any information anywhere how to remove this and clean. Is a new gasket needed?

 

[Mike1alike]

Thanks guys.. got loads to look at, thanks for the advice. Will let u know how I get on

is there any information anywhere how to remove this and clean. Is a new gasket needed?

You can replace the gasket, yes, as I've mentioned above. If it's so large, as you've described it, means it's old so a new one will do good.
I don't know how things sit exactly at your engine. At my Fire Punto 1.2 that channel is inside de CH cover. I found mine almost completely blocked. That made lots of oil deposits inside manifold and also oil traces outside CH cover, cause the pressure was so high there that oil vapors would come out of the breather hose and I think the oil filler cap, too. I cleaned it by washing it with diesel. Pumped some diesel into the channel. At first, it would come out only to one little outing from all of those. Here's a picture

 

[Deemoandy]

You can replace the gasket, yes, as I've mentioned above. If it's so large, as you've described it, means it's old so a new one will do good.
I don't know how things sit exactly at your engine. At my Fire Punto 1.2 that channel is inside de CH cover. I found mine almost completely blocked. That made lots of oil deposits inside manifold and also oil traces outside CH cover, cause the pressure was so hgh there that oil vapors would come out on the breather hose and I think the oil filler cap, too. I cleaned it by washing with diesel. Pumped some diesel into the channel. At first, it would come out only to one little outing from all of those. Here's a picture

Thanks. Sounds like a good thing to clean and look after

 

[Mike1alike]

Leaks here are the cause of oil deposits because (so I'm told!) they allow the air speed to drop so that the oil doesn't make it as far as it needs to to get burnt by the engine.

I don't think that happens. Because there's vacuum in the manifold and air is sucked in. It kind of goes in at the same flow rate, no matter what its entry point is. The problem there is that if it doesn't go through the air filter on its way in, dust particles can get inside combustion chambers and that is not recommended. Also, on the rainy days there'll be air with high humidity getting into the combustion chambers and that is no good either.

 

[irc]

I believe the problem is because if there's a reduction in vacuum through the crankcase breather, the oil fumes dont move fast enough and "drop out" of the air flow. Its certainly been that way on other "old school" engines I've worked on before PCVs and all that.
Anyway, probably a discussion for another time, its not adding much to the OPs cause, and whatever the reason, oil in the throttle body is not going to help things, and needs cleaning up.

 

[koalar]

I believe the problem is because if there's a reduction in vacuum through the crankcase breather, the oil fumes dont move fast enough and "drop out" of the air flow. Its certainly been that way on other "old school" engines I've worked on before PCVs and all that.
Anyway, probably a discussion for another time, its not adding much to the OPs cause, and whatever the reason, oil in the throttle body is not going to help things, and needs cleaning up.

Correct

If I was the original poster I would clean the MAP sensor

Make sure there isn't a pool of oil in the bottom of the inlet manifold

Put it all together and leave the crankcase breather pipe off and take it for a test drive, obviously you can't leave it like this as it polluting the environment and not too pleasant having oil vapour entering the cabin, but it's good enough for a test, to confirm or eliminate

If its no better, move on

If it drives better address why it keeps fouling

I do feel like I keep banging my head against a brick wall, a small leak upstream of the MAP is seen by the MAP so is corrected for, that is not the issue,.a small leak upstrem stops the oil vapour from being burnt correctly which leads to fowling of the combined sensor, which the sends the wrong information to the ECU

Here fiats take

Here how the system works via vacuum

 

[Deemoandy]

Correct

If I was the original poster I would clean the MAP sensor

Make sure there isn't a pool of oil in the bottom of the inlet manifold

Put it all together and leave the crankcase breather pipe off and take it for a test drive, obviously you can't leave it like this as it polluting the environment and not too pleasant having oil vapour entering the cabin, but it's good enough for a test, to confirm or eliminate

If its no better, move on

If it drives better address why it keeps fouling

I do feel like I keep banging my head against a brick wall, a small leak upstream of the MAP is seen by the MAP so is corrected for, that is not the issue,.a small leak upstrem stops the oil vapour from being burnt correctly which leads to fowling of the combined sensor, which the sends the wrong information to the ECU

Here fiats take

View attachment 476429
Here how the system works via vacuum


View attachment 476430

Thanks for all your help

 

[Deemoandy]

Apologies for the late response, after lots of testing and trying different fuels with no changes, I decided to take the plunge and change the coils. Car seems more responsive and tick over is stable. I’m happy with the results and decided to take panda for a run to the homeland in Wolverhampton.. no issues throughout the 200 miles from Cornwall. Thanks for all your guidance guys..

 

[The Panda Nut]

Try e5 for a couple of tanks.

 

[shera2025]

Not sure if I’m over thinking this but panda is sluggish in 3rd gear up hills. Nothing to steep but drop down from 4th and there’s nothing there.. had new clutch, plugs, ht leads, crank case hose. Also had throttle housing off and cleaned it up and also air sensors, but still flat up hills.. is this normal or shall I move on to changing coil packs.. not had it long, had it cheap as a run around but was expecting more..

A 1.1 Panda isn’t exactly a powerhouse, so it can feel sluggish in 3rd gear on hills, especially if it’s carrying extra weight. Sounds like you’ve done a lot of the basics already. Coil packs could be worth checking if misfires are suspected, but some of this is just the engine’s nature, don’t expect performance like a bigger car.

 

[timmycm850]

Remember its 55hp and not turbo'd. If you have 4 people in the car thats about 10hp per person and 15hp for the cars weight.