Shell optimax questions

[The Negotiator]

Probably discussion of optimax to follow, it was very interesting and I DID ASK! *clap*

Ok, marketing speak guy:

I was the last question, "So, do you feel that the cost premium of optimax means it's worth it in a car without a knock sensor"

Basically boiled down to "our customers say so", fair enough, he wasn't a huge techie. He also said that "It would be up to the individual to find out if they THOUGHT they got an advantage from it"

Then we went down to the car testing labs, this included the Ferrari F1 car, F550 (build quality was awful!), 4 other cars in their on rolling roads (they own 20 of them etc. etc.) inclunding a dual fuel Mondeo (2 cylinders on fuel A, 2 cylinders on fuel B) a A4 (benchtested engine, not sure what they were doing) and a Vectra on dyno with loads of fancy tools including choice of 3 fuels that could be selected. They have 250 cars aswell to do their testing on!! 250!!

Basically when the main tester had a minute we did a 30-60 run in the vectra in 4th uphill on the dyno, good fun, optimax had it but by 3metres over 340 or whatever it was lol. I went into details of optimax and liked my interest, he immediately took me to see the dual fueled mondeo and the difference in valves with a pin hole camera, optimax was cleaner. I asked him, is there any point with optimax in a car without a knock sensor, his basic answer was "No, nothing quantifiable, the cleaning affects might do something but that never had showed up on their extensive testing in terms of proper advantage. he told me all their data was done on newer cars with knock sensors and if he drove a car without a knock sensor he wouldn't consider optimax - most interesting.


All of the literature on Optimax that we were given was VERY careful in saying what advantages. He also said the target audience were people of newer and turbo'ed cars.

Firstly, this is the F1 car we played about with (including changing the wheel)

Then there's the F550 ( i was told) we got to rev a bit

 

[pinin__prestatyn]

Looks like you enjoyed yourself! hope you didn't find yourself talking in a german accent and being arrogant after playing with that F1 car...

 

[dave]

whats a knock sensor

 

[The Negotiator]

No but his bum indentation was still in it

The engine was out though on the desk, the steering wheel was complete though! Fantastic facilities they have there - all for testing their fuels. The weirdiest thing about it was the number of mini wings all over the car, like little spoilers all over the place here and there and little indentations etc. So much design must go into it!

The fastest team did the change in 4.44 seconds, I was very impressed! [wheel change]

Somehow I managed to go beyond one of the tester's knowledge, when he used the keyhole camera to show me the dirt and lack of, i asked him about the kick sensor and whether it worked over the whole row or on each indvidual cylinder. He said the whole lot so I stood there and thought about it:

"So if you're dual fueling, surely the knock sensor will be getting varying signals from the explosion of each and hence won't know the best choice as there won't be a best choice?" [i explained myself better than this somehow, i was on form]

"oh, erm, we have no evidence of this"

"But do you agree with my theory? Unless it changes the engine management constantly, either the standard 95 petrol will be ignited incorrectly or the optimax?"

"Yes I agree but you will have to ask..."

and he went on to say a random name and dept...lol

Fab day though, well worth my loss of afternoon.

 

[Liam]

Hmm, good feedback Paul but I can envisage the chat at breaktime tomorrow in the plant......

"Had this little know-it-all in yesterday............."

Only playing with you!

Liam

 

[The Negotiator]

LOL, me too Liam, I gave the tester guy a right grilling and that's probably why he took me to look at the key hole camera because somebody else talked to me for a few minutes! I was really scared to ask my question (although 6 of my friends went the other 23+ were other years of chem eng, mech eng and aero eng) but I managed and he said it was a good question .

I kept up quite well with what they were saying and gave them a good run for their money considering my lack of mechanical knowledge, although when he was showing me the Ferrari engine it was all bull**** to me, didn't have a clue about half the things he was talking about so I just smiled and said the engine looked a bit like my Fiat uno's engine but mine said FIAT instead.

I guess Pete lives with it day in day out but it was pretty cool to be in a chemical plant (well oil refinery) for a day, i mean I had to wear fireproof overalls - how exciting!

Does anybody like the Fiat logo? I specifically got that whilst I was under the impression photos were banned, I snuck there and did it from the side of my hip lol, then we were told photos were allowed in that area, typical. When my friends discussed how **** Fiats were I had to point out that logo, I defend Fiat quite a bit actually because I know the problems they have from here, I dislike people saying (without having a clue) things like "Why would you want a fiat? touch them and they fall to pieces" - what a constructive cmment! lol

So is this the definitive answer to the use of Optimax?

Only use if you have a knock sensor if you want there to be a difference (which you may or may not feel)
Only expect cleaning properties through using on any conventional engine which will have not qunatifiable difference (in the Head of Testing's words, not mine!) lol

I forgot to say, arc when you get to read this: I also asked about octane 100 and why it isn't that and got this answer (he was getting pretty bored):

A company like shell did their market research which told them a higher performance fuel was wanted, 98 octane was found to be the best choice for cost vs. performance vs. sales aspects and hence this was why 98 was chosen. If in the future people demand more, 100 will be looked at but at this time, despite Germany (his example, mine was Japan) and japan using though fuels, UK will stick with 98. However, you must remember 98 is the MINIMUM allowed octane (his words, not mine) for optimax and hence you find most are around 99 (not sure if this is true).

 

[dave]

You Gonna Tell Me What A Knock Sensor Is

 

[The Negotiator]

No David

I would have answered if I knew properly - I know the science just not maybe 100% in context.

You know what knocking is? Pre-ignition? Pinking? Where the fuel is ignited too early (through the increase in temperature caused by the increase in pressure) and hence energy wasted as the explosion is incorrectly timed with the movements of the poston. A knock sensor (using magic AFAIK) can work this out and adjust *things* to stop the knocking from happening hence improving the efficiency of the "explosion" stage.

I am sure somebody can fill in my blanks if you need it

 

[dave]

that will do thanks
hey how come i posted that with all caps now its not

 

[The Negotiator]

It often does that to stop "shouting"

 

[dave]

but i wanted to shout

 

[The Negotiator]

Nanny state...

 

[arc]

dave, a knock sensor detects pinking (by picking up high freq vibrations it produces) and then alters the ignition timing to suit the fuel.

very interesting and informative paul, ta for asking re octane of UK fuel vs others.

And i know (from the head tester) that theres bugger all point using optimax in my cinq

 

[Stu DemonD]

Sounds like a very interesting day, Paul.

I know Optimax in the Mondeo was deffo worth it at the time. In my old Renault Clio, iirc, there was a plug that you could change depending on the fuel being used - whether 95 or 98 Ron .

I may be tempted to put a tank in the Stilo, although have had bad reports on that - again, will need to check some old posts, and see if this relates to the 2.4 20V unit