Introduction
Here is the latest addition:
Panda (Classic) SEAT Marbella (Mk1 Panda replica).
- Thread starter pandamonius_maximus
- Start date
OP
OP
Well today wasn't as productive because it was too nice and sunny to be stuck in the garage! But I did finish off the gearbox build with the diff bearing pre-loads (managed to find the right shims from my stash 
)...
and have had some thought on where the engine speed sensor will go too. I'll hopefully have that sorted tomorrow after work! But making use of a TDC sensor bracket from the spare engine which will bolt onto the adaptor plate instead of the gearbox bell housing as it did before. No pictures of this yet...stay tuned!
)...
and have had some thought on where the engine speed sensor will go too. I'll hopefully have that sorted tomorrow after work! But making use of a TDC sensor bracket from the spare engine which will bolt onto the adaptor plate instead of the gearbox bell housing as it did before. No pictures of this yet...stay tuned!
OP
OP
So having returned from a most excellent time in Germany (and recovered) I got stuck back into the the 4x4ing...
The FIRE 4x4 bell housing doesn't have a place for a engine speed sensor so I have cut more away (getting nervous how much has been removed!) and used the spare engines TDC sensor bracket to mount it to the adaptor plate:
I also added 3 holes which represent 0°, 5° and 10º on the Y10 engine
The speed sensor then just screws onto the plate:
I also serviced the gear selector shaft which had a bit of play...I did have to grind the weld off the top nut and switch over bushes with the old Y10 turbo gearbox but benefit of having a welder...all fixed and back together (and greased heavily for another 30 years of life :slayer: ).
Question if anyone knows:
There is a TDC sensor (SEN 8D) and this engine speed sensor (SEN 8E)...can you use the SEN 8D as a speed sensor? I will check with some guys at work tomorrow but perhaps someone else has come across this too?...
...the only difference I can see, seems to be the length and even the electrical resistance check stated in the workshop manual is the same resistance tolerance.
The FIRE 4x4 bell housing doesn't have a place for a engine speed sensor so I have cut more away (getting nervous how much has been removed!) and used the spare engines TDC sensor bracket to mount it to the adaptor plate:
I also added 3 holes which represent 0°, 5° and 10º on the Y10 engine
The speed sensor then just screws onto the plate:
I also serviced the gear selector shaft which had a bit of play...I did have to grind the weld off the top nut and switch over bushes with the old Y10 turbo gearbox but benefit of having a welder...all fixed and back together (and greased heavily for another 30 years of life :slayer: ).
Question if anyone knows:
There is a TDC sensor (SEN 8D) and this engine speed sensor (SEN 8E)...can you use the SEN 8D as a speed sensor? I will check with some guys at work tomorrow but perhaps someone else has come across this too?...
...the only difference I can see, seems to be the length and even the electrical resistance check stated in the workshop manual is the same resistance tolerance.
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OP
OP
I've been busy...and successful :devil:
So gave the adaptor plate a bit of paint to help avoid any corrosion issues...almost looks bought in:
With a small amount of fettling it fitted onto the engine (fitted a new crankshaft end oil seal while I was at it)...
Starter motor position checked...all looking ok:
Fancy new hi-torque "stage 1" uprated clutch from ebay...claims +20% power increase capability which is probably a good idea as the clutch will be loaded more harshly with 4wd engaged...
The rear gearbox mount was no longer in the right position so I had to modify (which meant just straighten it out as that turned out to be around the 10mm position change from the adaptor plate :devil: )...
I also had to shorten the gear linkages for some reason...didn't think they should be in a different position on the 4x4 gearbox but apparently they eed to be ~20mm shorter! While at it, welded on metal ball joint as well :slayer:
And gearbox in!
Today I added engine oil to the gearbox and re-fitted all the suspension and turned the key! Starter motor engaged perfectly, engine fired up instantly with the nice new starter motor, and alignment sounds very good...no rattles or scuffing noises from the pressure plate...so with the biggest hurdle complete I can now hook at the propshaft / rear axle and the new side exit exhaust to build :devil:
Test drive possibly towards the end of the month
So gave the adaptor plate a bit of paint to help avoid any corrosion issues...almost looks bought in
:
With a small amount of fettling it fitted onto the engine (fitted a new crankshaft end oil seal while I was at it)...
Starter motor position checked...all looking ok:
Fancy new hi-torque "stage 1" uprated clutch from ebay...claims +20% power increase capability which is probably a good idea as the clutch will be loaded more harshly with 4wd engaged...
The rear gearbox mount was no longer in the right position so I had to modify (which meant just straighten it out as that turned out to be around the 10mm position change from the adaptor plate :devil: )...
I also had to shorten the gear linkages for some reason...didn't think they should be in a different position on the 4x4 gearbox but apparently they eed to be ~20mm shorter! While at it, welded on metal ball joint as well :slayer:
And gearbox in!
Today I added engine oil to the gearbox and re-fitted all the suspension and turned the key! Starter motor engaged perfectly, engine fired up instantly with the nice new starter motor, and alignment sounds very good...no rattles or scuffing noises from the pressure plate...so with the biggest hurdle complete I can now hook at the propshaft / rear axle and the new side exit exhaust to build :devil:
Test drive possibly towards the end of the month
OP
OP
Well the power is getting forever closer to those rear wheels :devil:
The rear axle before...
and after (with added locating dowels welded onto the bottom of the axle to slot into the lowering blocks)...
I found a new diff end plate on ebay the other day for a reasonable price which really helps tidy it up
The next step is to make the axle / leaf spring clamp plate from the Panda 4x4 plate and the Marbella one (cut in half to leave the remaining damper mounting arm)...
And the prop shaft offered up to the underside all looks promising so far! :devil:
So tomorrow I will put the axle up onto the car and connect to the prop shaft...but unfortunately cannot bolt it up as I forgot to buy the right length bolts! So will have to wait till Monday to buy those!
The rear axle before...
and after (with added locating dowels welded onto the bottom of the axle to slot into the lowering blocks)...
I found a new diff end plate on ebay the other day for a reasonable price which really helps tidy it up
The next step is to make the axle / leaf spring clamp plate from the Panda 4x4 plate and the Marbella one (cut in half to leave the remaining damper mounting arm)...
And the prop shaft offered up to the underside all looks promising so far! :devil:
So tomorrow I will put the axle up onto the car and connect to the prop shaft...but unfortunately cannot bolt it up as I forgot to buy the right length bolts! So will have to wait till Monday to buy those!
OP
OP
More progress today, however I have now found out I must get the prop shaft shortened by 20mm. With the car lowered on blocks the rear diff effectively moves forward...hopefully the place in Bristol I have found will be able to do this and balance it all up for me
You can see here the propshaft has to zig-ag as it is too long. It cannot fit straight between. Fortunately the front section of the shaft fits fine with the centre mounting plate positioned correctly...
Fitting 4x4 panda rear springs helped move the axle back a bit (2wd springs seem to have more flex in them which exaggerates the movement of the axle as the spring deflects). All looking smart tho, once I get the propshaft length / balancing sorted it's sort the exhaust and then road test!! :slayer:
You can see here the propshaft has to zig-ag as it is too long. It cannot fit straight between. Fortunately the front section of the shaft fits fine with the centre mounting plate positioned correctly...
Fitting 4x4 panda rear springs helped move the axle back a bit (2wd springs seem to have more flex in them which exaggerates the movement of the axle as the spring deflects). All looking smart tho, once I get the propshaft length / balancing sorted it's sort the exhaust and then road test!! :slayer:
OP
OP
Ok, going to be a bulk update as have been madly obsessed in getting this fixed up after some gearbox issues
With the addition of the prop shaft I am not able to route the exhaust to the rear as the car is too low. So there was only one answer...side exit exhaust. I had the back box from the original Y10 Turbo which has a rediculous bore...but made for a funny image:
It wasn't practical though as it would have sat about 2" off the ground!...
So instead cut up and welded back together bits of the original exhaust with the adaptor for the cherry bomb exhaust :devil:
A nice neat routing now:
And fairly discreet position...looking forward to hearing it at full throttle with the window down :slayer:
Nothing sitting too low to the ground either and the 4x4 panda leaf springs are so much stiffer with all the weight taken out the back of the car...should be a completely different car in the corners...
Still awaiting the propshaft to be built and fitted but otherwise the car is now ready to get a fresh MOT...
So I mentioned gearbox issues...
On the first attempt I found I got stuck into 5th gear and got locked out of 1,2,3 and 4th. Reverse gear grinded when attempting to engage but didn't go in thankfully. Anyway, I took the gearbox back out to have a look and found very little wrong. I did have these little springs in the wrong order...
...but on re-fitting the gearbox the same problem happened again so it wasn't that. Then it occured to me we have a gearbox guru amongst us :worship:
So post phone call with andyholli I had a strong idea of the issue. The top selector is splinned and can be fitted on in 2 positions! Only 1 is correct...the clue is the lever at the back (see image below) should not be vertical but at an angle when left in neutral like so...
So with this sorted the car drove around in all gears! So again huge thanks Andy H for helping me get to the bottom of it. And after a 5-10 minute phone call as well! Legend.
Here is a preview video of the cars first venture outside with the new exhaust and rear axle fitted:
[ame]https://youtu.be/zS_gMANOiuM[/ame]
:slayer::devil::worship:
With the addition of the prop shaft I am not able to route the exhaust to the rear as the car is too low. So there was only one answer...side exit exhaust. I had the back box from the original Y10 Turbo which has a rediculous bore...but made for a funny image:
It wasn't practical though as it would have sat about 2" off the ground!...
So instead cut up and welded back together bits of the original exhaust with the adaptor for the cherry bomb exhaust :devil:
A nice neat routing now:
And fairly discreet position...looking forward to hearing it at full throttle with the window down :slayer:
Nothing sitting too low to the ground either and the 4x4 panda leaf springs are so much stiffer with all the weight taken out the back of the car...should be a completely different car in the corners...
Still awaiting the propshaft to be built and fitted but otherwise the car is now ready to get a fresh MOT...
So I mentioned gearbox issues...
On the first attempt I found I got stuck into 5th gear and got locked out of 1,2,3 and 4th. Reverse gear grinded when attempting to engage but didn't go in thankfully. Anyway, I took the gearbox back out to have a look and found very little wrong. I did have these little springs in the wrong order...
...but on re-fitting the gearbox the same problem happened again so it wasn't that. Then it occured to me we have a gearbox guru amongst us :worship:
So post phone call with andyholli I had a strong idea of the issue. The top selector is splinned and can be fitted on in 2 positions! Only 1 is correct...the clue is the lever at the back (see image below) should not be vertical but at an angle when left in neutral like so...
So with this sorted the car drove around in all gears! So again huge thanks Andy H for helping me get to the bottom of it. And after a 5-10 minute phone call as well! Legend.
Here is a preview video of the cars first venture outside with the new exhaust and rear axle fitted:
[ame]https://youtu.be/zS_gMANOiuM[/ame]
:slayer:
:devil::worship:
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Ok, going to be a bulk update as have been madly obsessed in getting this fixed up after some gearbox issues
With the addition of the prop shaft I am not able to route the exhaust to the rear as the car is too low. So there was only one answer...side exit exhaust. I had the back box from the original Y10 Turbo which has a rediculous bore...but made for a funny image:
It wasn't practical though as it would have sat about 2" off the ground!...
So instead cut up and welded back together bits of the original exhaust with the adaptor for the cherry bomb exhaust :devil:
A nice neat routing now:
And fairly discreet position...looking forward to hearing it at full throttle with the window down :slayer:
Nothing sitting too low to the ground either and the 4x4 panda leaf springs are so much stiffer with all the weight taken out the back of the car...should be a completely different car in the corners...
Still awaiting the propshaft to be built and fitted but otherwise the car is now ready to get a fresh MOT...
So I mentioned gearbox issues...
On the first attempt I found I got stuck into 5th gear and got locked out of 1,2,3 and 4th. Reverse gear grinded when attempting to engage but didn't go in thankfully. Anyway, I took the gearbox back out to have a look and found very little wrong. I did have these little springs in the wrong order...
...but on re-fitting the gearbox the same problem happened again so it wasn't that. Then it occured to me we have a gearbox guru amongst us :worship:
So post phone call with andyholli I had a strong idea of the issue. The top selector is splinned and can be fitted on in 2 positions! Only 1 is correct...the clue is the lever at the back (see image below) should not be vertical but at an angle when left in neutral like so...
So with this sorted the car drove around in all gears! So again huge thanks Andy H for helping me get to the bottom of it. And after a 5-10 minute phone call as well! Legend.
Here is a preview video of the cars first venture outside with the new exhaust and rear axle fitted:
https://youtu.be/zS_gMANOiuM
:slayer:
Monstrous burble, I love it
Mad awesome mate. Sooo glad you got to the bottom of the gear box issue. Can't wait to see this one in the flesh! You must give me a ride some time!
- Joined
- May 20, 2017
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Wow, this is a nice thread. You've done some awesome work on this car!
OP
OP
Well it will be 4wd so maybe take it green laning...kidding!.... or am I haha :devil:
A ride can be arranged assuming it all works out ok!
Excellent work as usual Si! Hope the propshaft all works out ok.
The gearbox issue sounds like an easily done thing, I'm glad you've got it sorted, its something I'll have to remember when I get round to attempting a build of a high ratio 4x4 box.
I love how all of the bits of Hadrian will have gone from being thrashed up rocky tracks to being thrashed round a race circuit:slayer:
The gearbox issue sounds like an easily done thing, I'm glad you've got it sorted, its something I'll have to remember when I get round to attempting a build of a high ratio 4x4 box.
I love how all of the bits of Hadrian will have gone from being thrashed up rocky tracks to being thrashed round a race circuit:slayer:
OP
OP
Thanks! And there will be more to come I am sure! :devil:
There does indeed need to be recognition of this on the car somewhere... Still not counting my chickens yet...but I am getting excited :devil:
OP
OP
Well small update and summary of the aforementioned gearbox issue resolvement status!...
It isn't resolved basically! I found out what triggers it though, as couldn't seem to make it happen again before. It happens when going from 2nd gear into reverse. For some reason when the 1st and 2nd gear selector shaft has been pushed to the 2nd gear position and back to neutral, if you select reverse it also pushes 2nd gear back in! So you end up in a situation where 2nd gear is engaged...which blocks out the 3rd and 4th gears and also prevents you from deselecting the 2nd gear.
So the picture below shows the position the gearbox gets trapped in:
I've labelled up what the bits are doing (with the main selector removed so you can see which bits are being slid around):
So if I avoid going from 2nd to reverse the problem won't happen...but probably good to try to understand why! Oddly it is quite difficult to get it to happen when manually sliding these around. But it is everytime using the top selector thingy as intended with the gear stick. Could be it is loading these shafts differently to just pushing with a screwdriver...
So at least I have a better idea of what is happening now...but still no idea why!
It isn't resolved basically! I found out what triggers it though, as couldn't seem to make it happen again before. It happens when going from 2nd gear into reverse. For some reason when the 1st and 2nd gear selector shaft has been pushed to the 2nd gear position and back to neutral, if you select reverse it also pushes 2nd gear back in! So you end up in a situation where 2nd gear is engaged...which blocks out the 3rd and 4th gears and also prevents you from deselecting the 2nd gear.
So the picture below shows the position the gearbox gets trapped in:
I've labelled up what the bits are doing (with the main selector removed so you can see which bits are being slid around):
So if I avoid going from 2nd to reverse the problem won't happen...but probably good to try to understand why! Oddly it is quite difficult to get it to happen when manually sliding these around. But it is everytime using the top selector thingy as intended with the gear stick. Could be it is loading these shafts differently to just pushing with a screwdriver...
So at least I have a better idea of what is happening now...but still no idea why!
Still thinking alignment - if one more spline around on the 'lefty, righty' stick then 2nd (and 4th) won't be thrown so far into, or would be pulled further back out of, engagement to allow the detente springs to do their stuff..?
Everything else is positively built - shafts have no option but to be in one position relative to their input selectors due to cut outs for pinch bolts so it can't be an issue deep inside the box..
He says, keeping the humble pie slice close to hand.
Have another go Si, you're nearly there.
Everything else is positively built - shafts have no option but to be in one position relative to their input selectors due to cut outs for pinch bolts so it can't be an issue deep inside the box..
He says, keeping the humble pie slice close to hand.
Have another go Si, you're nearly there.
OP
OP
Thanks again Andy. Will have another look at the "asplinement" (sorry) tomorrow. Definitely preferring a solution which keeps the gearbox in the car so comforting words to hear that is unlikely to be an issue further inside...
Fingers crossed though anyway...will keep y'all posted!
OP
OP
Well...
definitely feeling a bit out of my depth now.
The selector doesn't go on any other splines sadly, and even with it in the 2 position it will go on the same problem occurs.
I tried fitting the stiffer spring onto both the "1 & 2" and "5 & rev" shafts to see if it would help resist 2nd gear going in when selecting reverse but it still happens.
I am beginning to think that the gear stacks are matched /shimmed to the casing. So the gear positions relative to the selector position on the casing is wrong. So could just throw the 4x4 gear stacks back in and live with it. Or... use the Y10 casing instead of the 4x4 casing (assuming it bolts onto the FIRE 4x4 bell housing). But the workshop manual states gear casing is matched to engine mounting casing ... aka bell housing so this could cause other alignment issues...
Either way, the gearbox comes out for those so...
...think I might just make sure I never go from 2nd to reverse. It's not something that needs to be done even if it does seem to happen naturally when pulling up to a parking space! And I can take the selector cover off and manually pop it out of 2nd I guess! Can't be bothered to take gearbox out again! And when it happens it doesn't cause any damage...
definitely feeling a bit out of my depth now.
The selector doesn't go on any other splines sadly, and even with it in the 2 position it will go on the same problem occurs.
I tried fitting the stiffer spring onto both the "1 & 2" and "5 & rev" shafts to see if it would help resist 2nd gear going in when selecting reverse but it still happens.
I am beginning to think that the gear stacks are matched /shimmed to the casing. So the gear positions relative to the selector position on the casing is wrong. So could just throw the 4x4 gear stacks back in and live with it. Or... use the Y10 casing instead of the 4x4 casing (assuming it bolts onto the FIRE 4x4 bell housing). But the workshop manual states gear casing is matched to engine mounting casing ... aka bell housing so this could cause other alignment issues...
Either way, the gearbox comes out for those so...
...think I might just make sure I never go from 2nd to reverse. It's not something that needs to be done even if it does seem to happen naturally when pulling up to a parking space!
And I can take the selector cover off and manually pop it out of 2nd I guess! Can't be bothered to take gearbox out again! And when it happens it doesn't cause any damage...
well this certainly sounds like an annoying as hell issue but like you say, its one that can be lived with... I also would just leave it for the time being, you may have a :idea: moment in the future but no real point completely dismantling now without an actual plan that will fix it as i see it.
OP
OP
Yeah, is what I am feeling now. Think I have exhausted all the possible silly mistakes. I think it must now be something which is normally set at the factory.
Using the spare 4x4 gears and Y10 casing have had a look at the reasons behind this issue.
Here are all the gears in the neutral position:
This is with reverse engaged:
as reverse engages it must mesh the idler gear (the gear at the bottom of the following image on it's own shaft):
which is why the edges are rounded to help guide them in. However if they don't mesh properly then they will push this gear up instead and this will force 2nd gear to engage as well. This is the 2nd gear selected position:
So I believe the idler gear is not the right size and perhaps this is picked from various sizes in the factory...perhaps I should have used the 4x4 one which came with this casing, rather than the Y10 one...
Anyway, think I am living with this as a risk for now. Unless new information comes to light
Using the spare 4x4 gears and Y10 casing have had a look at the reasons behind this issue.
Here are all the gears in the neutral position:
This is with reverse engaged:
as reverse engages it must mesh the idler gear (the gear at the bottom of the following image on it's own shaft):
which is why the edges are rounded to help guide them in. However if they don't mesh properly then they will push this gear up instead and this will force 2nd gear to engage as well. This is the 2nd gear selected position:
So I believe the idler gear is not the right size and perhaps this is picked from various sizes in the factory...perhaps I should have used the 4x4 one which came with this casing, rather than the Y10 one...
Anyway, think I am living with this as a risk for now. Unless new information comes to light
OP
OP
It'll be like this....totes!...
OP
OP
OK so been a little while since reported. I took gearbox out again to try to get to the bottom of this gear selection issue. But it's looking like something I will have to live with for now.
This time I tried fitting all the stuff from the 4x4 Panda gearbox except the diff, and the gear stack shaft which has the correct final drive output gear on it. All the gears and synchros are now from the Panda 4x4, including the reverse gear. It still knocks into 2nd when going into reverse though, so I have now made a small inspection hole right above the 1st and 2nd gear selector shaft...so I can easily knock it back out if it does it again. But the trick of making sure I never go from 2nd gear to reverse seems to hold for removing the issue anyway.
On a more positive note...after a roady test yesterday I decided to treat the car to something I wanted to do for a while...yellow headlights :devil:
Ready to receive a prop shaft... which I need to get on top of really as have let comms slide a bit with the manufacturer! It'll be a brand new, and strengthened prop hopefully. :slayer:
This time I tried fitting all the stuff from the 4x4 Panda gearbox except the diff, and the gear stack shaft which has the correct final drive output gear on it. All the gears and synchros are now from the Panda 4x4, including the reverse gear. It still knocks into 2nd when going into reverse though, so I have now made a small inspection hole right above the 1st and 2nd gear selector shaft...so I can easily knock it back out if it does it again. But the trick of making sure I never go from 2nd gear to reverse seems to hold for removing the issue anyway.
On a more positive note...after a roady test yesterday I decided to treat the car to something I wanted to do for a while...yellow headlights :devil:
Ready to receive a prop shaft... which I need to get on top of really as have let comms slide a bit with the manufacturer! It'll be a brand new, and strengthened prop hopefully. :slayer:
