Introduction
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Panda (Classic) SEAT Marbella (Mk1 Panda replica).
- Thread starter pandamonius_maximus
- Start date
I went the yellow bulb route when I decided I needed yellow lights 
They looked cool when lit (IMO) but awful in practise, it was like driving with a couple of candles in jam jars
They looked cool when lit (IMO) but awful in practise, it was like driving with a couple of candles in jam jars
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I went the yellow bulb route when I decided I needed yellow lights
They looked cool when lit (IMO) but awful in practise, it was like driving with a couple of candles in jam jars
Yeah I actually got the desire from having a set of yellow bulbs I got from the donor Y10 turbo lights. Loved the look when lit, and these weren't too dull either but they blew and I couldn't find the same ones again. Not sure how good this will be at night, but the Marbella headlight design is much better for lighting up the road anyway. Will try to give it a test drive soon and a video as well...
I do think they look cool on Pandas and Marbellas alike of course...
Had an MOT tester tell me that yellow weren't allowed. He'd already swapped the bulbs for regular white ones and thrown my yellows away already, got very grumpy with him since yellow is legal, so be wary of that.
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Loving the yellow lights, looks more demented than before. I wish i could help with gearbox conundrums but i know far too little about them.
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Prop-shaft update!
The car has been checked over by the propshaft builders and I have some mounting suggestions which are going to keep my busy for a little bit.
So there are basically too many angles going on, 9° down from the gearbox output, ~10° rear diff angle down, and prop shaft angles to centre support bearings are too great too. Summary of the issue and solution courtesy of powerpoint:
So it's back to 2009 again for engine mountings
But I have now got the output from the gearbox down to 5° and this is probably the best that can be done. So need to mount the centre bearings so the front prop shaft angle is 0° mid section will be at 0° and rear prop shaft section I am hoping will be around 2° up to the diff. So will still be a bit of a C shape going on but tbh no worse than a standard 4x4 panda...so hoping this is enough to go forward with the custom prop shaft! :devil:
The car has been checked over by the propshaft builders and I have some mounting suggestions which are going to keep my busy for a little bit.
So there are basically too many angles going on, 9° down from the gearbox output, ~10° rear diff angle down, and prop shaft angles to centre support bearings are too great too. Summary of the issue and solution courtesy of powerpoint:
So it's back to 2009 again for engine mountings
But I have now got the output from the gearbox down to 5° and this is probably the best that can be done. So need to mount the centre bearings so the front prop shaft angle is 0° mid section will be at 0° and rear prop shaft section I am hoping will be around 2° up to the diff. So will still be a bit of a C shape going on but tbh no worse than a standard 4x4 panda...so hoping this is enough to go forward with the custom prop shaft! :devil:
Great progress (I'm sure I can smell the beginning of the finish line) but can you explain the physics of this problem to me - I thought a joint was a joint, why do these minor angles matter so much please?
It's not keeping me awake but it is bothering me that I don't understand at all, absolutely not a clue..
Cheers Si.
It's not keeping me awake but it is bothering me that I don't understand at all, absolutely not a clue..
Cheers Si.
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I think it is a frequency of vibration issue. The straighter it is the higher shaft rpm it can be balanced to. The more bends in it, the more possible frequencies of vibration and the harder to balance / lower max allowable shaft rpm.
I'm told their calcs have said it can only spin at 900rpm if using it as it was...or 1500rpm if using a straighter path...so top speed of 33mph or 55mph! But I have now improved the output shaft angle to better than a normal Panda 4x4, and will only have kink on the rear section of the shaft now I hope...I'm out of ideas if they don't like that as the standard Panda 4x4 actually does this dangerous C shape they don't like (i.e. the front shaft has an angle of ~2° down, and the back shaft has an angle of ~2° up with. The angle of the gearbox output is 9°down on standard panda 4x4 too.
I reckon we're just playing it safe tbh...which can't hurt I guess! Probably be good up to 200mph when we're done :devil:
With my limited knowledge on the subject I think I am correct in thinking as the front section of the shaft uses CV joints the angle of the flanges is not such as issue. The CV joints will maintain a constant velocity regardless of whether the flange angle is equal, hence their name. CV joints will have a max working angle however so that needs to be taken into account
With universal joints as used on the rear section the flange angles need to be equal otherwise the shaft velocity will vary as it spins, causing vibration and such issues. This is basically the reason CV joints are widely used.
With universal joints as used on the rear section the flange angles need to be equal otherwise the shaft velocity will vary as it spins, causing vibration and such issues. This is basically the reason CV joints are widely used.
CV joints go through much greater angles than these (but at generally lower rpm) on the drive shafts. If the single rear UJ is the only potential cause of vibration (once the shaft is balanced) then twisting the diff nose up to straighten it out - per Si's diagram should be a fix..
- Would tilting it that much significantly move any suspension pick ups? - I don't think so, just damper mounts back a bit.
Also - don't forget we've tested the standard 4x4 prop set up beyond 100mph without a problem.[winky face]
- Would tilting it that much significantly move any suspension pick ups? - I don't think so, just damper mounts back a bit.
Also - don't forget we've tested the standard 4x4 prop set up beyond 100mph without a problem.[winky face]
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To be honest I am putting my faith in this prop shaft expert as I didn't want to cause massive issues / waste lots of money destroying a propshaft...but it doesn't completely make sense to me either. We know the Panda has fairly large angles and gets away with it...maybe this is a simple power thing...the more power you put through it the more aggressive the vibrations...
Anyway I have successfully reduced the output of the gearbox down to 3.5° down (using genuine mk1 panda gearbox mounts now as they have a taller bracket); with the centre bearings bolted directly to the bottom of the car I should have a roughly horizontal front shaft and mid shaft. The only bend will be up to the rear...can't see why that wouldn't be ok...please let it be ok!!
Side benefit to this lowering of the engine:
- I now have space above the alternator so I can properly tension the belt!
- Centre of gravity is lower so of course I will go quicker...it's a given! :devil:
Downsides of lowering engine:
Water pipes and induction pipes are going to need re-positioning as are stretched and squished in their new position...with a small water leak resulting...
Carburettor is stuffed up against the radiator which should really help with the carburettor overheating issue... :bang:
Exhaust mounting needs re-working...it's got a bit close to the floor unsurprisingly!
I will do a proper drawing and email to the prop shaft chaps...then will probably tell them to build one for me despite their concerns...or find out they are totally happy with what I have done and put my feet up and not think about it again.
Dark now so will grab photos tomorrow hopefully
Anyway I have successfully reduced the output of the gearbox down to 3.5° down (using genuine mk1 panda gearbox mounts now as they have a taller bracket); with the centre bearings bolted directly to the bottom of the car I should have a roughly horizontal front shaft and mid shaft. The only bend will be up to the rear...can't see why that wouldn't be ok...please let it be ok!!
Side benefit to this lowering of the engine:
- I now have space above the alternator so I can properly tension the belt!
- Centre of gravity is lower so of course I will go quicker...it's a given! :devil:
Downsides of lowering engine:
Water pipes and induction pipes are going to need re-positioning as are stretched and squished in their new position...with a small water leak resulting...
Carburettor is stuffed up against the radiator which should really help with the carburettor overheating issue... :bang:
Exhaust mounting needs re-working...it's got a bit close to the floor unsurprisingly!
I will do a proper drawing and email to the prop shaft chaps...then will probably tell them to build one for me despite their concerns...or find out they are totally happy with what I have done and put my feet up and not think about it again.
Dark now so will grab photos tomorrow hopefully
- Amen sister.
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Got a bit more engineery...
Think will have to reduce the amount of lowering on the rear to achieve a straighter routing but it isn't looking like crazy angles now
Think will have to reduce the amount of lowering on the rear to achieve a straighter routing but it isn't looking like crazy angles now
Got a bit more engineery...
Think will have to reduce the amount of lowering on the rear to achieve a straighter routing but it isn't looking like crazy angles now
Will it be raked to the front? - Coz 'the underbody aero'..
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So this weekend was sorting out the rear axle height and angle. I have sacrificed some lowering to allow the prop shaft angle to be minimised...will also not bottom out as much on the bump stops and moves the wheels back away from the arch as well which is good...but I preferred it being lower. I guess engineering is a world of compromise...
So 3 hrs of pillar drill / hole saw action I got a cradle shape machined into the blocks...and the axle can rotate in it. Not great that the bolt heads will not sit flat on the flange but it does give me the ability to adjust angles easily. And these bolts are hefty so should be some safety factor in there...probably should calculate that...
And painted and fitted...
So rear diff is only 3° down now and might even be possible to have a 2 piece prop shaft with single centre bearing. And hopefully no cutting of the floorplan!
1 month to go before the debut of the 4wd Marbella Turbo at Crystal Palace Sprint in London! As always, people welcome to come watch
http://www.motorsportatthepalace.co.uk/
So 3 hrs of pillar drill / hole saw action I got a cradle shape machined into the blocks...and the axle can rotate in it. Not great that the bolt heads will not sit flat on the flange but it does give me the ability to adjust angles easily. And these bolts are hefty so should be some safety factor in there...probably should calculate that...
And painted and fitted...
So rear diff is only 3° down now and might even be possible to have a 2 piece prop shaft with single centre bearing. And hopefully no cutting of the floorplan!
1 month to go before the debut of the 4wd Marbella Turbo at Crystal Palace Sprint in London! As always, people welcome to come watch
http://www.motorsportatthepalace.co.uk/
Lovely work, I salute you Sir.
Must ask though - the damper body looks as though it could stress against the bracket it shoulders up to, under droop perhaps. Does the spring angle the axle 'backwards' as it travels down?
Must ask though - the damper body looks as though it could stress against the bracket it shoulders up to, under droop perhaps. Does the spring angle the axle 'backwards' as it travels down?
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Well spotted
Yeah it gets pretty close. I have bent the brackets out so the dampers clear it just. It looks like they're interfering in the photo, but they just recess in a bit...but to be sure it clears I think I will flip the damper bottom eyelet 180° as this will move the damper further away. Worst case I think is at full droop but the axle does tilt back as you say when it compresses so don't think there is much in it. I'll leave the brackets on though in case this project doesn't work out and it can go on to help another fortunate soul!
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So I just went with the option to flip the damper round but as it turns out the damper couldn't actually slide off so I had to cut a bit of the bracket off anyway! I was not removing the axle again lol...it's a bit fiddly to get it all tightened up evenly...
Anyway plenty of clearance now :slayer:...
Also yes used 8.8 grade bolts and nuts...
I believe stainless is not as good in fatigue so I kept to normal zinc plated.
So...maybe now I can just get a prop shaft and enjoy neck breaking accelerations :devil:
Anyway plenty of clearance now :slayer:...
Also yes used 8.8 grade bolts and nuts...
I believe stainless is not as good in fatigue so I kept to normal zinc plated.
So...maybe now I can just get a prop shaft and enjoy neck breaking accelerations :devil:
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Disc brakes might be nice someday...but they'll just slow me down ...arguably a good thing
