General Rear Bump Stops

[koalar]

Thank you koalar & Jock for your kind & helpful replies - much appreciated

I've witnessed welding plenty enough and always thought I fancy giving it a go, but yes I'd consider myself a complete beginner.

Which I guess is why MMA was advised to me as easiest to pick up, but I'd never stopped to consider it would be unsuited to thin metal. So thank you for putting me on the right path with MIG.

Yes, it would be for mostly use on cars, plus some other projects (but no load-bearing structures). Funnily enough, also a trailer, but a small lightweight one for bicycles (I convert e-bikes in my spare time).

I'm very cautious with any power tools or high voltages or heat - I've seen what can go wrong, and I've only got one hand already so I need to be careful

So I'll make sure to do some proper research, learning and trials before letting myself loose on my unsuspecting Panda.

Full face auto darkening helmets make the whole learning experience much easier and stops you getting sunburned

My thoughts are as @irc suggested, clean up back to sound metal, rustproof and weld a plate with a hole for the bump stop. Unless anyone has some bright ideas?

@irc is exactly what I would do

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

My thoughts are as @irc suggested, clean up back to sound metal, rustproof and weld a plate with a hole for the bump stop. Unless anyone has some bright ideas?

I think that should work well. Always worth remembering when welding the bottom of vehicles that the other side of what you are welding will get very very hot indeed so there's always a considerable risk of setting fire to carpets and upholstery. Less likely in this particular case because you're welding to the end of that trumpet shape. Also there's going to be a considerable amount of sparks involved so watch out for fuel lines etc - which, together with fuel tanks, are often plastic now a days so can melt. with your helmet on you're not going to see flames! I never weld vehicles on my own, I always have a "watcher" and lift carpets out of the way if welding sills or floors. Some anti rust waxes and seam sealers can burn "quite nicely" too. I have no less than 8 fire extinguishers - CO2, Powder and Halon (yes, we don't talk about the Halon these days) in the workshop.

 

[DaveMcT]

After welding, the heat-affected metal will have a layer of "mill-scale" oxide. This has to be cleaned off before the protective coatings are applied. Otherwise, it will eventually flake away, taking any carefully applied sealant with it.

 

[Blueboy54123]

Most breakers will not be willing to do this any more. 5-10 years ago no problem

Those that do will cost an arm and a leg


It’s part of these 51706918

However if it’s a common failure no doubt one of the repair panel companies will supply no doubt

Are you supposed to be able to pull the bump stop out from its housing without much force while it's on the car or should they be quite firmly fitted

 

[koalar]

Are you supposed to be able to pull the bump stop out from its housing without much force while it's on the car or should they be quite firmly fitted

Normally there very difficult to fit and next to impossible to remove

It not unknown for the hole to rust bigger

You can clean it and bond it in

 

[Blueboy54123]

Normally there very difficult to fit and next to impossible to remove

It not unknown for the hole to rust bigger

You can clean it and bond it in

Thanks for the info

 

[The Panda Nut]

Wish my spring pans looked as good as yours!

Have you tried welding at all, or are you a complete beginner? If you've no experience, or you haven't done much, can I suggest a MIG? You'll find it much easier for welding almost anything on a car. Indeed unless you are really good with a stick welder (MMA, meaning Manual Metal Arc), you'll just blow holes in everything with one of these. You also need to consider that a cheap, low output, stick welder is usually more difficult to use because cheap welders are often much more difficult to strike the starting arc with because they have low open circuit voltage. Resist also the temptation to just buy the cheapest MIG/MAG you can find because you'll probably get problems with wire feed, cheap torch and other stuff - There's more components to a Mig/Mag than a simple stick welder. I bought a Cebora Pocket Turbo 130 many years ago and it's been very reliable. Also go for a gas shielded type. I find the flux cored wire type more difficult to use on thin metal and don't make anything like as neat a weld. Might be worth considering too whether you will ever want to do more than just weld up bits of cars? You don't need too "meaty" a machine to weld car metal because it's so thin so you want one which can use 0.6mm wire. However, once you get the welding "bug" you may well want to do more. I started off wanting to weld up the wings on my old van but found I enjoyed it so much I've built and repaired so much "stuff" over the years - Motor cycle frames, Horticultural machine chassis, I even built my own small unbraked trailer! and the fact that the Cebora can use both 0.6 and 0.8mm welding wire has allowed me to do all that. By the way, make sure you buy a machine which does not have a permanently live torch. I doubt if there are many now a days which have a permanently live torch but you don't want one.

Something like this: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/135te-turbo-mig-welder/ should fit the bill nicely. It can be dialed back down to quite a low amperage for the thin stuff but still has the "grunt" for the occasional use on thicker stuff. It's probably about as big as you'd want to go on a domestic 3 pin plug though. I can also strongly recommend an automatic arc activated welding helmet which will leave you with both hands to use with the welder and positioning the work piece and make life so much easier.

Lastly. If you have absolutely no experience you'll need to practice with wire and current settings on some scrap metal before you'll be able to make a sound strong weld. Take a look on you tube for how to videos or even better, take some evening classes.

All really useful as Im also thinking of a welder. Ive had a couple and they allpaid their cost back. 24 stick welder 50 years ago!! got me going but not easy... It quietly did a lot of jobs. Blowing holes in stuff was an issue. I thought it was just me.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I did the panda 100 stops. I sprayed silicon lubricant on car and stops they then went on without too much trouble. A block of wood under the stop, in place of the spring, and a jack under the spring pan they popped in. Not designed to come out ever again though. Febi stops were fine.

 

[irc]

I have had a few which have just fallen out without the turret having rotted away - sometimes they just start falling apart.
They do make a surprising amount of noise when rattling around inside the spring.
They usually go in alright, but I have had to resort to "jacking" them in a couple of times in the past.

I was supplied some cheap unknown-brand ones which were not even a matching pair (they got sent back) and another set which had square mounting stubs, which, strangely enough, didn't go in a round hole.

Febi ones are OK, Original Birth seem to be closer to original in look and feel.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

@rmjbn 1 Just wondering, did you get yourself a welding machine and if so, what did you buy?

 

[rmjbn1]

@rmjbn 1 Just wondering, did you get yourself a welding machine and if so, what did you buy?

Even better, I inherited one!

Telwin Union 141, so it has a very promising model number. I imagine they were hoping to market it directly at Panda owners.

But far too powerful for my needs I suspect.

It came back with us from Brussels, I haven't been able to find any specs for it. Also been busy with new roof and greenhouse, not had time to play with it yet. If you smell smoke when the wind's in the west, you'll know I've succeeded :/

So I'm still rolling around on one bump stop. MoT chappie didn't seem to mind. But if we pick up any heavy hitch-hikers they'll have to sit behind me

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Even better, I inherited one!

Telwin Union 141, so it has a very promising model number. I imagine they were hoping to market it directly at Panda owners.

But far too powerful for my needs I suspect.

It came back with us from Brussels, I haven't been able to find any specs for it. Also been busy with new roof and greenhouse, not had time to play with it yet. If you smell smoke when the wind's in the west, you'll know I've succeeded :/

So I'm still rolling around on one bump stop. MoT chappie didn't seem to mind. But if we pick up any heavy hitch-hikers they'll have to sit behind me

I'm not too well up on the more professional machines but a quick look at their website indicates you've landed on your feet with this one. Is it a transformer or inverter type? Pictures and more specs - like what wire size can it use - would be very interesting also a close up of the torch maybe. Controls too if you can mange.

 

[rmjbn1]

Well that's very kind of you, Jock
Here she is

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well that's very kind of you, Jock
Here she is

Ah ha. That looks like a reasonably substantial Manual Metal Arc welder - or "stick" welder as many call them, it's not a MIG. Looking at the current selector on the top to the right of the handle it's got a maximum current rating of 140 amps which makes it in the same league as my trusty old SIP140 Topweld. On the front face you'll see a guide for stick sizes vs recommended current, which is very similar to the recommendations for mine.

Don't know how much you know about this type of welder? It's the old, and usually very reliable, transformer type. Inside is just a great big laminated core with multiple windings around it. The core is hollow with a "slug" which can be wound in and out of it to increase or decrease the magnetic flux - which increases or decreases the output. The big black plastic "wheel" in the middle of the front is what you turn to do this. There's a pointer which is attached to the moving core which you can see in the window slot on the top and it will give you a very rough indication as to what the current being output to the torch is. One very good thing I notice is that on the front it says "Thermostatic protection" This is a, usually bimetallic, heat sensor which nestles against the main windings and will cut the supply if it all gets hot enough that it may suffer damage. This can happen when welding long runs at higher current settings. If it does this you have to wait for quite a while for it to cool down enough for the sensor to allow reconnection of the supply. It does this automatically when it cools down but, if you immediately do high current work with it again it'll cut out quite quickly because it won't have had enough time to get really cold again. The core is a big bit of metal so keeps heat like a storage radiator and takes time to cool. Mine would do it after quite short runs with a 3.2mm rod - which requires a high amperage setting to burn it properly - but would work quite well with shorter runs of 2.5mm rods when it rarely got too hot. I later fitted a cooling fan into the back of the case and modified the cooling vents so it pulls cool air in at the front and drags it over the core before pushing it out the back. With the fan fitted it can be used pretty much continuously with 2.5 rods and has a long enough duration before cutting out with 3.2 rods to be "useful". I have tried 1.6mm rods in an effort to weld body panels with it and, now that I'm quite handy with it, it can be done but it's not easy and the results are not neat because you can't do continuous runs but do "cadence weld" (which is a stop start "stutter" in effect and quite difficult to do effectively). In truth it's a waste of time. I really only burn 2.5s these days and it welds stuff like angle iron, chassis rails on horticultural stuff, and other similar stuff. Some better quality machines had fans fitted as standard. If yours has one you'll hear it running when you turn the supply on. The give away for that is that they usually have the word "Turbo" somewhere in their name.

This sort of machine, and their lesser brothers, were what many of my students would bring in to the welding classes I ran for community education and one thing you might like to consider is this. When "new and shiny" they work fine "out of the box" but as they age you'll find they quite often become difficult to strike the arc. I couldn't tell you how many of these I've taken the top cover off and found the main connections, where the transformer heavy windings terminate at the two output terminals, are corroded or at least making less than perfect connection. They are usually simple to dismantle, clean up and reassemble - taking care with the insulation between the connections and the case - The improvement in performance was often quite marked. It's all about good connections with these machines because they don't have very high open circuit voltage and it's open circuit voltage which lets you strike that arc easily. Good connections elsewhere are important too, so where the leads are connected to the torch and earth clamp and the earth clamp itself needs a good "bright metal" connection to the workpiece and the clamp needs to very firmly grip the end of the welding rod. None of it's rocket science but a high resistance connection anywhere will make arc striking in particular more difficult and make a good quality weld more difficult to achieve.

I'm sure there's more I could tell you but just can't think of it just now - please ask away if you want. Somewhere on here I did a bit about my welder. I'll try to find it and post a link. I'm sure you'll "suffer" some frustration at first but then, especially once you master establishing (striking) the arc, you'll have a lot of fun. There's a shed load of videos on you tube all about arc striking and rod angles etc which you need to take a look at.

 

[koalar]

Well that's very kind of you, Jock
Here she is

An old buzz box aren't as easy that easy to use

Much harder to strike an arc than a modern inverter type

You will not be able to weld thin metal 3 mm is fairly reliable, you can weld thinner but it starts to get sketchy, a large block of copper on the underside may help

The good new is has a good duty cycle 60% so 6 minutes out of 10

The cheap and nasty ones are only 20%

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Another thing which just jumped into my mind. Look at the thickness of the supply lead from the mains plug - pretty thick eh? This size of transformer type welder is about as big as you can expect to use on a domestic 13 amp plug. Try always to plug it directly into the mains without using an extension and DON'T COIL THE MAINS LEAD - it needs to be fully extended to avoid internal heat building up. During the induction, first evening, class I would go on at some length about how important unrestricted supply is for these machines and I'd get them to experiment with different lengths and wire size of extension leads. We found that a 20ft cable of 2.5mm 3core connected to the machine's existing lead giving around 25 ft of extension was about the most you could get away with and still be able to get a good result with 2.5 rod. You're not going to be able to take one of these to the bottom of the garden and power it up with the extension lead for the lawnmower! Oh yes, it'll switch on and the lights will come on (if it has any) but you'll not be able to get enough current to burn rods. If you can, just run it on the lead it come with. Oh, and if you're going to try it up near the max for any length of time you can expect to blow a fuse from time to time - I don't have circuit breakers so don't know how they behave.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Oh dear, things keep jumping into my mind. This time it's the rods themselves (welding electrodes some call them) There's a large range of different types of rod with different purposes. I find a Rutile rod works well for beginners. Also they are a bit less demanding in terms of storage conditions - which is important to maintain the quality of the coating which in turn becomes the protective slag when using the rod. I find mine last well stored in the airing cupboard alongside the hot water cylinder! You definitely don't want to store them in cold damp conditions. The ones I buy have E 6013 stamped on them. Here's a useful guide: https://www.jasic.co.uk/post/mma-st...ain a,electrodes with good welding properties.

 

[rmjbn1]

Crikey, thank you both so much for that wealth of information. I've got some percolating to do in the ol brain case!

Truth be told I knew that welder wasn't what I needed.

But it was handed over during frantic packing on a flying visit. You should see the stuff we came back with! We now have an elaborate automatic sewing machine, looks like a mix between a Hammond organ and an overcrowded fishing boat. They were so happy because they knew I wanted a welder. And it were free!

Turbo MIG remains on the wish list. Once I'm not so busy wi't'house I was thinking of dragging the Telwin down to our local men's shed and see if someone has a MIG I can learn with in exchange

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Crikey, thank you both so much for that wealth of information. I've got some percolating to do in the ol brain case!

Truth be told I knew that welder wasn't what I needed.

But it was handed over during frantic packing on a flying visit. You should see the stuff we came back with! We now have an elaborate automatic sewing machine, looks like a mix between a Hammond organ and an overcrowded fishing boat. They were so happy because they knew I wanted a welder. And it were free!

Turbo MIG remains on the wish list. Once I'm not so busy wi't'house I was thinking of dragging the Telwin down to our local men's shed and see if someone has a MIG I can learn with in exchange

Don't sell the Telwin short. A "stick" welder is a very useful piece of kit which can be dragged out at very short notice and doesn't require stuff like shielding gas/flux coated wire or other "consumables". It's also a very simple machine so reliable. Once you gain a bit of skill with it there's a lot you'll find it useful for. I wouldn't be without mine even if the MIG is the "celebrity star" of the show! Definitely worth learning how to use it.

 

[rmjbn1]

Yes, I'll probably hang on to it, just offer it up for use as a resource at the men's shed. I'm not very good at parting with things anyway!

Just out of interest, here's my bump stop turrets, 2004 car at 126k miles.

I prised the right bump stop out, cleaned out the turret and pushed it back in. I don't remember it putting up a fight