Peugeot Fiat

[Eklipze3k]

I dare say a single battery can do more than 40k though, so in the grand scheme of things ...

 

[DaveMcT]

One fact that everyone seems to have missed. Manufacturing li-ion batteries causes massive pollution. The pollution caused making batteries for a Prius outweighs the pollution of running, say, a Civic for 40,000 miles.

There is an issue with the battery anode which has a solvent based coating. Tesla bought Maxwell to get a dry tech for this part of the process. The rest of the process is not toxic or especially energy intensive.

However until that's sorted the solvents have to be extracted and scrubbed out of the HVAC system. Easy enough and certainly less bad than the stuff they use to make silicon solar panels. Glaxo had the same problem with a heavy solvent used for tablet coatings. If it got into the drains it would destroy the bugs in the sewerage works. Lovely stuff. Vents from tablet coaters had carbon filters with strict routines on replacement.

They went over to water based coatings and ran the drying time for longer.

 

[Garrett500]

There is an issue with the battery anode which has a solvent based coating. Tesla bought Maxwell to get a dry tech for this part of the process. The rest of the process is not toxic or especially energy intensive.

However until that's sorted the solvents have to be extracted and scrubbed out of the HVAC system. Easy enough and certainly less bad than the stuff they use to make silicon solar panels. Glaxo had the same problem with a heavy solvent used for tablet coatings. If it got into the drains it would destroy the bugs in the sewerage works. Lovely stuff. Vents from tablet coaters had carbon filters with strict routines on replacement.

They went over to water based coatings and ran the drying time for longer.

It's not just that part of the process though, mining lithium is extremely pollutive, more so than coal mining

 

[AndyRKett]

I find the thought of accident damage to one of these batteries very concerning. I'll be watching developments with great interest.

Firstly the batteries in electric cars are highly armoured so they are extremely resistant to damage. The tesla model x as an example is the safest car money can buy.

Secondly if you think of the battery in an electric car, like a tank of lovely highly flammable petrol in a normal car rather than the battery under the bonnet, you start to realise that the there is a lot of fire contained in the petrol tank of any normal car, it’s not normally armoured in anyway and petrol cars burst into flames with astonishing regularity.

 

[AndyRKett]

It's not just that part of the process though, mining lithium is extremely pollutive, more so than coal mining

To get petrol out of the ground they have to build dedicated drilling platforms using thousands of tons of metal. Tow it into the middle of the sea using really big ships, then spend months drilling a big pipe into the ground. They pump sea water down into oil deposits to push the oil out with very big pumps they then pump all that oil into a huge tanker ship which burning fuel chugs its
way to an oil refinery (it’s worth noting by products such as gas is burnt off, on the platform straight into the atmosphere as it’s not worth the effort and cost of transporting it. Oil refineries are enormous places that cover hectares of land, they use huge tanks, chemicals and all manner of other processes to separate the petrol from the crude oil, pump it into tanks again and from there is distributed all over the country or world in ships and trucks. By the time you get your 1 litre of petrol to the pump how much CO2 and environmental damage has been done before you put a drop in your car?

Then how many tanks of fuel will your car get through in its life time?

People always forget that part of running a car?

You can’t recycle petrol but you can recycle batteries, so once you have mined the materials you don’t have to continually dig up more and more for use in the same car over and over.

The final and most obvious point I should make is that very fuel people are running their car on coal... ?

 

[SB1500]

Firstly the batteries in electric cars are highly armoured so they are extremely resistant to damage. The tesla model x as an example is the safest car money can buy.

Secondly if you think of the battery in an electric car, like a tank of lovely highly flammable petrol in a normal car rather than the battery under the bonnet, you start to realise that the there is a lot of fire contained in the petrol tank of any normal car, it’s not normally armoured in anyway and petrol cars burst into flames with astonishing regularity.

I think the main point with the concern on this is how to deal with them when they are ruptured. The petrol would burn out much quicker, though still deadly when it does.


In some cases the batteries have been compromised, though it could probably be extremely rare. When it does, even if it's not often, will we know how to deal with it? I think today it's not understood as well as it should be.

That's not to say the risk should mean we don't adopt the technology or dismiss it, I think it means we should simply watch how it plays out and be aware we're trading one kind of risk (petrol risks) with a new kind of risk with its own associated set of dangers that are perhaps more difficult to deal with?

 

[AndyRKett]

I think the main point with the concern on this is how to deal with them when they are ruptured. The petrol would burn out much quicker, though still deadly when it does.


In some cases the batteries have been compromised, though it could probably be extremely rare. When it does, even if it's not often, will we know how to deal with it? I think today it's not understood as well as it should be.

That's not to say the risk should mean we don't adopt the technology or dismiss it, I think it means we should simply watch how it plays out and be aware we're trading one kind of risk (petrol risks) with a new kind of risk with its own associated set of dangers that are perhaps more difficult to deal with?

Battery fires “can” be harder to deal with than a petrol fire, the electric car Richard Hammond Crashed supposedly was still re-catching fire several days after the accident because of how severely damaged the battery was.

You rupture one battery it catches fire and then ruptures the batteries around it. But we are in the early days of this technology, versus over 100 years of petrol cars, event then petrol cars catch fire far more frequently than electric vehicles. And are less likely to be ruptured than a fuel take in an accident. The cars being so highly armoured makes them incredibly safe an example being the model X that the american car safety people (equivalent to NCAP) couldn’t get it to roll on a normal roll over test, they tried repeatedly and the results can be found online.

If someone invented the internal combustion engine now, explaining how you have to carry 50 litres of highly explosive petrol about in a thin plastic tank that has a hot exhaust pipe a couple of centimetres from the plastic thin plastic pipes
Containing that fuel under the bonnet with a mixture of heat, moving parts and chemicals, oh and you have to stand on an open forecourt and pump this flammable liquid into the car through a metal nozzle into your car, holding the pump with bare hands, there concept then put like that seems insane froM a safety perspective, but we do it because we have been for decades.

 

[DaveMcT]

Nothing is without risk. To date, the battery cars have shown they are significantly safer in accidents than petrol cars. Tesla cars simply get into fewer accidents in the first place and that can only improve as their autonomous driving takes over.

Owners say they've had their car apply the brakes for seemingly no reason only to see the car in front rear end the car ahead of them. The radar had seen the crash coming and stopped in time.

Tesla have the battery cells all across the scateboard floor so should be higher risk in side impacts but that hasn't been borne out. More ordinary cars put the battery under the back seat where the petrol tank would otherwise be. It's well protected.

Also consider the energy content. Batteries contain a fraction of the energy found in a petrol tank. If they do go up it's nasty, but nothing compared to a few gallons of petrol in what amounts to a plastic bag.

 

[chris3234]

Firstly the batteries in electric cars are highly armoured so they are extremely resistant to damage. The tesla model x as an example is the safest car money can buy.

Secondly if you think of the battery in an electric car, like a tank of lovely highly flammable petrol in a normal car rather than the battery under the bonnet, you start to realise that the there is a lot of fire contained in the petrol tank of any normal car, it’s not normally armoured in anyway and petrol cars burst into flames with astonishing regularity.

Petrol doesn't burn constantly in contact with oxygen and can be put out with water

But both can be dangerous in the wrong situation

 

[AndyRKett]

Petrol doesn't burn constantly in contact with oxygen and can be put out with water

But both can be dangerous in the wrong situation

petrol for example can be very dangerous if you try and put it out with water...

On the flip side, batteries are largely safe to pour water on.

 

[chris3234]

petrol for example can be very dangerous if you try and put it out with water...

On the flip side, batteries are largely safe to pour water on.

Unless they are on fire and the lithium is exposed and they it's very dangerous to try and put the fire out with water

 

[AndyRKett]

There is very little reactive lithium (ironically) in a lithium ion battery.

The reason batteries catch fire when ruptures is the relations between the oxygen in the air and the compounds in the battery, pouring water on this is not going to make the situation worse, but will cool down the battery and prevent the fire from rupturing other adjacent batteries in a pack.

 

[puntofan01]

My understanding of the street supply, is that 3-phase arrives along a street, and each phase is used to deliver to one-third of the houses. The balancing is therefore done at the street. I have seen, twice in my lifetime, the odd situation where about a third of the houses in a street are without power, when one phase has somehow failed.

This should mean that 3-phase is in the street, but capacity now probably means that only a few houses in any street can have a 3-phase supply for their car charger.

Many phone users now carry power packs, to top up their phone during the day. I guess many such people will be reluctant to adopt a BEV, for fear of running out of power.

A great number of people do not really travel far. Commuting, shopping, etc. A BEV would suit them easily, once they get their mind around it, and would not need charging every day.
Longer trips then create a problem. The cars that travel good distances between charges, are very expensive. Even things like a Leaf or Zoe are expensive, but these have significantly shorter ranges.

Currently I have to regularly visit an uncle, 39 miles away. He lives in a terraced cottage, in a narrow street, with parking on the opposite side of the road. A Leaf, with an 80 mile range will struggle to do the round trip, especially with heating, wipers, lights, etc. No facility to charge while there, so before return, I would have to sit at a charger for a while. That makes no sense. A visit to my brother in Bristol would be just as difficult, as he is on the 12th floor of a block of flats. Running an extension lead from a window, and he's at the back of the block, down and arouond to the front is just not going to happen. Parking the car at the local supermarket for a charge adds more silliness. For a 40 minute charge, do I sit and wait, so close to my destination? Or do I leave the car, walk 10 minutes to his flat. Then 20 minutes later, walk back to collect the car after its 40 minute charge. In the rain.
About three-quarters of my work is within an easy retrurn journey on a single charge. The other quarter is not. Once on-site, I'm driver training for 3 hours. Having to return to remove the car from a charger will seriously reduce the flexibility of the training, and reduce the benefit to the customer.
We are a long way from solving these issues, so don't hold your breath.

What if I have an emergency overnight, and the car is not charged?

My local fuel station has 4 double-sided pumps. So eight vehicles at a time. If a fill-up takes 10 minutes each, when busy, they are serving 48 vehicles an hour. Each of which wil return a week later.
An electric vehicle needs a 40 minute charge. So that's 1.5 per hour. We're going to need a lot of charging points.[emoji317] OK, so many will be charging at home, and never need anythiing else. We'd need a calculation of the number of likely longer distance vehicles to gauge the demand. But the longer distance driver needs these points more often.

We need to change our travelling habits. Return to the 1900s, where we all work within walking distance of home, travel rarely, so use trains more and visiting relatives 50 miles away takes lots of planning and an overnight stay. Freight moves on the trains, with electric vans for local final delivery only.
There's a challenge for any politician.

I've driven a few electric cars, I like them. Sadly, can't see me owning one for some time. I may get old before they're ready for me.

Apologies for quoting your whole comment, but I couldn't edit it for some reason! [emoji52]

With regards to changing travel habits, I completely agree: these days, it's seen as completely normal to drive more than 60 miles each day just to get to work and back. What's worse, retail companies will use premises with small storage areas, and then make numerous deliveries of stock. (And people wonder why greenhouse gas emissions are frighteningly high!) Take Argos for example: that used to be an immensely handy company that had large premises, and kept stocks of pretty much anything you could need, so when you went there, chances are, they'd have it in the warehouse. Obviously, nowadays, likely because of the rise of Internet shopping, Argos is just stuck in Sainsburys stores. I asked in my local branch how on earth they manage to have any storage space, and to my horror, the reply was that they get round the lack of warehouse space by having 3 deliveries A DAY!!!

I find this attitude, along with the expectation that the majority of people should cover vast mileages just in commuting incredibly wasteful, but in modern culture, it has become the norm, and when "refuelling" vehicles gradually gets more and more time consuming as EVs takeover, I believe that it will cause absolute chaos, as individuals struggle to adapt their lifestyles, and companies have to completely redesign their business models. In my personal opinion, I feel that the coming years will be... Interesting, to say the least!

 

[portland_bill]

What's worse, retail companies will use premises with small storage areas, and then make numerous deliveries of stock.

When I started in the motor trade, parts deliveries to smaller garages were once daily from a factor, twice weekly from the major car manufacturer dealers. Others someone had to go fetch. An urgent (Vehicle off the road) order would take two-three days to come from the manufacturer, a stock order 1-2 weeks.

Then, one bright spark in a major aftermarket parts supplier, based in Oxford, decided that to encourage their wholesalers to stock a wider range, they'd increase the deliveries from the main warehouse. Urgent orders, received before 6pm, were delivered overnight, arriving before opening time at the factor. Stock orders would be one day later. This meant lots of smaller orders, more 'picking' operations at the warehouse, for very little extra sales. Fast moving oil filters for the Rover A-series engine had been supplied in packs of 25, now going out in fives. So five orders for the same sales. Service to the end customer improved, costs went up, a lot. Profits for the main supplier fell, unsurprisingly, as stockists only took a small profit hit, compensated by more sales due to wider stock. The main company gently slid onto oblivion. (At least while it lasted it bought me a house, although that is trying to slide into oblivion too)

All the competitors had to follow suit, but they were better at it.
Garages used to get factor parts deliveries once or twice a day, now they get multiple deliveries, as witnessed by lots of factor vans (Euro, Andrew Page, etc.) tripping around almost empty.

We all expect our cars to be repaired instantly. Sadly, this has not filtered through to domestic appliances. Still have to wait weeks for an engineer, then weeks more for the simple part.

 

[varesecrazy]

Tesla are taking the bashing for another issue with electric car technology - more particularly, when things go wrong... The fire brigade and recovery vehicle drivers are not able to contain or understand the kind of fire and explosion risks from lithium batteries of this size / application / damaged in a car crash situation...



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...t-first-responders-don-t-know-about-fiery-evs


I'm sure it's just a matter of time until efficient and safe handling of all this is standard practice for these first responder situations, but as of now, it's another huge problem with vehicles that everyday people like us are using daily and could potentially end up crashing and ending up faced with. Another one to keep an eye on, really.


Assumably, it will apply to any electric car with large lithium batteries which also assumably, other car makers will grasp to over time as we go electric. Thoughts?

Nowadays..

They have devolped special 'firecontrolling sprays'

They spray it at the metal structure
Battery casing is the most likely..

it forms a clay.like layer.. that sets.. keeping out oxygen so dampening any flame.

Cones set out.. park at a safe distance

Im not sure hydrogen is better / worse.





As an aside.. the goverment car.tax MOT checker now has proper working links:

GoUltraLow

New PHEV hatchback ( mini)
Old eco car (875cc punto)


Saves me £230 annually on 'fuel'

And of course the old car will make longer journeys a lot quicker.

 

[Didge3]

As an aside.. the goverment car.tax MOT checker now has proper working links:

GoUltraLow

New PHEV hatchback ( mini)
Old eco car (875cc punto)


Saves me £230 annually on 'fuel'

And of course the old car will make longer journeys a lot quicker.

I didn't know that website existed so thanks for pointing it out.
Apparently I would save £260 annually on fuel doing my weekly commute compared to an e-UP, which I would be able to do under the range of the e-UP potentially only having to charge every other day, this discounts my 6 weekly(ish) trip to visit the parents of 160miles where I'd need to stop and charge. Although I'm positive the website pulls the claimed MPG from cars which Fiat reckon is 61mpg or something ridiculous so the savings are probably higher.

Irritatingly you can't pick used EV's as I'm very unlikely to purchase new anytime in the foreseeable future.

 

[StevenRB45]

I can apparently save 745 quid a year...

Which is not enough to make buying a new electric car worthwhile.

Always been the case for me that fuel is a secondary cost it's depreciation that is actually that one that hurts and given the price of an electric defaults to 30k regardless of manufacturer unless you want to hire some of a Zoe by the time you've paid the additional up front and sucked up the additional depreciation it doesn't make any odds at all.

Starts at about 7 grand deficit..if we're being charitable will be worth 3k more at 3 years just absolutely doesn't work.

They always wheel someone out at some point to say I can't believe how much money I'm saving despite the higher cost! These people will be high miles with cars on the never never, otherwise your swapping a small fuel bill for a large initial purchase price currently.

 

[DaveMcT]

Nissan burnt themselves (and their buyers) by having poor driving range, no effective battery management and not telling users how to manage their charging regime. Top the battery to 100% after every use (as most people did) and you will soon kill the battery. After a head start under Ghosn, Nissan seem to have walked away and none of the Japanese makers seem to have any interest in battery EVs.
Right now EVs are Chinese or high depreciation EU makers and a huge risk regarding depreciation. Tesla seem to be the only ones bucking that trend. Over a 5 years period a Model 3 extended range will cost significantly less than a £25K Toyota petrol hybrid, but who has the wedge to get into a Tesla?

 

[Didge3]

Nissan burnt themselves (and their buyers) by having poor driving range, no effective battery management and not telling users how to manage their charging regime. Top the battery to 100% after every use (as most people did) and you will soon kill the battery.

This is one of the problems with small EV's. Early Nissan Leafs with high mileage are practically worthless as the batteries are knackered.

Its common knowledge that modern EV's only use a middle chunk of their battery (e.g. 25-75%). So to increase the range we need a substantially bigger battery to still use that mid-portion to avoid degradation.

 

[varesecrazy]

We had a DS5..(??)

Diesel hybrid as a course demo

It had the same basic kit of a starter generator.. but proper propulsion batteries.

Its the kind of halfway house I would end up getting..

But even at @8 years old its still effectively the same money my TA Cost me new..


Its still years til I get away from ICE.

Cannot charge at my house
Cannot charge where I stay in the week

Potentially could charge at work.. but it would 'just' get me to the house 110 miles
And onto tesco on saturday night to charge while I shop.. praying that 20/30 mins will do another 120 miles

I cant see it