Technical Panda Slave Cylinder?

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Technical Panda Slave Cylinder?

mikegml

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Last week my 2014 panda twin air clutch slave cylinder started screeching and squealing. Gears were hard to select, clutch pedal didn’t seem to want to come up. Had a job to make it home. At least I thought it was the slave cylinder after doing my research including on here.

So, I changed it this morning, not too hard a job. Now it drives as normal, changes gear ok, no clutch slip evident, clutch feels pretty normal as far as I can tell, but……. It still screeches like f***. It’s silent when the clutch is fully up and on the move. But stationary it can either be almost silent, or screechy. Depressing the clutch up and down is always screechy.

I’m a bit baffled now
 
Last week my 2014 panda twin air clutch slave cylinder started screeching and squealing. Gears were hard to select, clutch pedal didn’t seem to want to come up. Had a job to make it home. At least I thought it was the slave cylinder after doing my research including on here.

So, I changed it this morning, not too hard a job. Now it drives as normal, changes gear ok, no clutch slip evident, clutch feels pretty normal as far as I can tell, but……. It still screeches like f***. It’s silent when the clutch is fully up and on the move. But stationary it can either be almost silent, or screechy. Depressing the clutch up and down is always screechy.

I’m a bit baffled now
Could be lots of things. Expect loads of suggestions.

Lift up the bonnet. Work out where the sound is from. Left or right side

Same in different gears. Worse when accelerating

Is your car with or without aircon
 
Thanks.

It's quiet when moving or accelerating, no problem, sqealing only when stationary or depressing clutch to change gear. changes gear ok. Sound not emanating from any exact point, just the general lower engine area, maybe more to l/h/s/.

Clutch thrust bearing! I'm also thinking it might be something like that. sounds expensive?
 
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If it is the thrust bearing you would be better replacing the clutch as well likely cheaper in the long run about £450 round here so you need to be sure
 
If it is the thrust bearing you would be better replacing the clutch as well likely cheaper in the long run about £450 round here so you need to be sure

You're maybe right, though it's only done 64k and I only do about 4k a year if that, so if it's significantly easier to do just the bearing then I'd maybe just go for that?
 
Labour is going to be the biggest part so it could be false economy not to change it but you need to try to be sure it is that as I can only have a guess going off what you have said, a mechanic that can see and hear it may think it’s something else.
 
Yep I know. I'm leaning towards the bearing as it makes a noise when you'd expect it too and otherwise not? It also increases in pitch as you rev it higher when out of gear or stationary. Difficult to confirm exactly.
 
You're maybe right, though it's only done 64k and I only do about 4k a year if that, so if it's significantly easier to do just the bearing then I'd maybe just go for that?
Gearbox out to get at the release bearing. Depends on how the clutch has been used, but at 64K miles I'd at least be removing the cover assembly and having a look - most likely I'd just put a 3 piece clutch kit in though. Once the box is out it's only a few minutes extra work to change the clutch so very little difference in labour cost. If you're paying a workshop to do the job then definitely do the whole thing. Why not take it along to your local garage and get them to have a listen? most small indys wouldn't charge just for a quick listen and release bearing noises are easily diagnosed by an experienced man.

Probably around the £400 mark, £350 if you're very lucky, is about going rate for a clutch on a FIRE engined version. If your twin air has a dual mass flywheel - I think the early ones had solid flywheels but I don't know about the later ones (which I think do have D/M flywheels?) - If the D/M flywheel needs to be changed too then you'll need to sit down to listen to the quote!

If you do take the gearbox out then very carefully check for oil leaks from the input shaft seal and spin the shaft and have a feel for slackness and noise in the input shaft bearing. Note: some will call the input shaft the First Motion Shaft. Not a bad idea to check generally for oil leaks anyway - rear main bearing seal, if leaking, would need the box out too - best to get these things done at the same time to save money and aggravation later.

PS. Good time to renew the gearbox oil too.
 
Gearbox out to get at the release bearing. Depends on how the clutch has been used, but at 64K miles I'd at least be removing the cover assembly and having a look - most likely I'd just put a 3 piece clutch kit in though. Once the box is out it's only a few minutes extra work to change the clutch so very little difference in labour cost. If you're paying a workshop to do the job then definitely do the whole thing. Why not take it along to your local garage and get them to have a listen? most small indys wouldn't charge just for a quick listen and release bearing noises are easily diagnosed by an experienced man.

Probably around the £400 mark, £350 if you're very lucky, is about going rate for a clutch on a FIRE engined version. If your twin air has a dual mass flywheel - I think the early ones had solid flywheels but I don't know about the later ones (which I think do have D/M flywheels?) - If the D/M flywheel needs to be changed too then you'll need to sit down to listen to the quote!

If you do take the gearbox out then very carefully check for oil leaks from the input shaft seal and spin the shaft and have a feel for slackness and noise in the input shaft bearing. Note: some will call the input shaft the First Motion Shaft. Not a bad idea to check generally for oil leaks anyway - rear main bearing seal, if leaking, would need the box out too - best to get these things done at the same time to save money and aggravation later.

PS. Good time to renew the gearbox oil too.
Thanks.

£££!! It's a Twin Air 2014, in very good condition, looks almost new in and out if that's anything to go by. There is an independant pretty good just round the corner, looks like I'll have to visit.
 
left hand side facing the engine or from the drivers seat ?
The Noise? left side from the drivers seat, from right side as you look into engine bay, but the sound resonates you can't pinpoint it exactly but I'd say from the area of the slave cylinder approx.
 
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The Noise? left side from the drivers seat, from right side as you look into engine bay, but the sound resonates you can't pinpoint it exactly but I'd say from the area of the slave cylinder approx.
its a not an easy one to eliminate something

this section of the forum is for up 2012

I believe the twinair has a dual mass flywheel and is a known weakness

both the gearbox input shaft bearing and the clutch realise bearing will make a noise when in neutral and go quiet when the clutch is pressed. In neutral, press the pedal down slowly, if there's a point where the noise get louder it would point to the release bearing its not 100%. If you press the pedal down quickly and the noise stops about 1/2 second later it probably the input bearing but again not 100%

oil inside the bellhousing would indicate gearbox trouble, there is an inspection hole, is there oil in the gearbox ?


before jumping to the conclusion (its likely) its the release bearing it will needs further diagnostics. 64K is quite early for one to fail. I normally get well over double that.

It would be better 5o start a new thread in the correct section. More people that know the in and out of that model will see and possibly help you

"It also increases in pitch as you rev it higher when out of gear or stationary." clutch pedal up, down or both

the only suggestions I can think of at the moment are. Take it to a few garages for free quotes, or post the noise on YouTube and link on here. Its hard to describe a noise.
 
its a not an easy one to eliminate something

this section of the forum is for up 2012

I believe the twinair has a dual mass flywheel and is a known weakness

both the gearbox input shaft bearing and the clutch realise bearing will make a noise when in neutral and go quiet when the clutch is pressed. In neutral, press the pedal down slowly, if there's a point where the noise get louder it would point to the release bearing its not 100%. If you press the pedal down quickly and the noise stops about 1/2 second later it probably the input bearing but again not 100%

oil inside the bellhousing would indicate gearbox trouble, there is an inspection hole, is there oil in the gearbox ?


before jumping to the conclusion (its likely) its the release bearing it will needs further diagnostics. 64K is quite early for one to fail. I normally get well over double that.

It would be better 5o start a new thread in the correct section. More people that know the in and out of that model will see and possibly help you

"It also increases in pitch as you rev it higher when out of gear or stationary." clutch pedal up, down or both

the only suggestions I can think of at the moment are. Take it to a few garages for free quotes, or post the noise on YouTube and link on here. Its hard to describe a noise.
Thanks for the very full info'.

Only just realised I've posted in the Mk3 forum. I've now moved the original query to the Mk4 forum and retitled it. Here's a link: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/clutch-thrust-bearing.493090/

The present position is:

1. The sqealing is very quiet when stationary on tickover and in neutral, almost not there, but it can be louder and quite noticable sometimes. It goes away or goes quieter if you increase the revs while still in neutral.

2. It starts squealing quite loud immediately the clutch is depressed and is a bit louder fully depressed. It's the same if it's in gear or out.

3. The gear lever feels loose and sloppy when moving between the gears with clutch depressed and stationary.

4. It drives normally on the road (at least it did yesterday, I've not driven it today) it changes gear ok, sqealing only when depressing the clutch or if stationary. When in gear and moving you hear nothing.
 
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2. It starts squealing quite loud immediately the clutch is depressed and is a bit louder fully depressed. It's the same if it's in gear or out.

.
this one basically confirms throw out bearing (release bearing)

just need to find the opinions on whether on the dual mass (if you car even has one), some car they are done with the clutch as a matter of course, others just change the clutch. Some cars people convert back to a standard system with a new flywheel. I dont have any experience with the latter pandas/500s to advise you
 
Thanks for all the info' Guess I'll have to take it to my local independant and have them check it over. Cheers again.
 
TwinAir puts 2x energy into gearbox per thump compared to a four cylinder. Dual mass is there to give the gearbox an easier life. Replacing dual mass flywheels with older type solid can lead to gearbox damage. It's been an issue with diesels for some time so take care.
 
TwinAir puts 2x energy into gearbox per thump compared to a four cylinder. Dual mass is there to give the gearbox an easier life. Replacing dual mass flywheels with older type solid can lead to gearbox damage. It's been an issue with diesels for some time so take care.
Quite a number of years ago, when the "new fangled" Dual Mass flywheels started selling in volume, and then appearing, failed, in the workshop, our factor started stocking and aggressively selling, Single mass conversion kits. I was very attracted to the idea of replacing these very expensive dual mass flywheels and, for a while, I would have recommended them to anyone interested. Yes they did make the car a bit more noisy and "rough" and sometimes changed the feel of the clutch pedal to quite a degree but, as long as you were prepared to put up with these small changes, you could save quite a bit of money and gain reliability - or so I thought. Early designs of DMF often failed frequently. They work much harder at low revs so can be expected to give more trouble in "town cars" and delivery vans - Transits seemed to briefly have a problem with this but they sorted it pretty quickly - when compared to a rep's car cruising the motorways.

Then the stories of failed gearboxes and even broken crankshafts started to circulate so I became even more interested in it all. There seems to be two really big problems with converting to a single mass flywheel from a D/M jobbie. One is the engine itself - we'll come back to that in a minute - the other being the gearbox. Invariably, but not always, the gearbox will rattle and chatter at low revs after converting to S/M (especially with the very low viscosity oils being used in todays transmissions) and this gives some idea of the increased reversal of forces going on with S/M. Some of the manufacturers have developed special driven plates with longer more compliant torque absorbing springs to try to control this aspect and they work tolerably well. If you go this route then if you need another clutch later on you must make sure it's the same make as a standard plate sometimes won't fit and even if it does you'll likely have other problems. In general I think you can expect to shorten the life of a gearbox if you change from a D/M to a S/M flywheel - unless you are doing a lot of higher speed open road/motorway cruising.

The engine, and especially the crankshaft, is a different proposition altogether. Most of us who have had engines in pieces will regard the crankshaft as a very heavy and robust piece of kit which would seem difficult to damage? What we perhaps don't think to much about is the forces acting on it. The connecting rods connect along it at different points and sometimes they are transmitting a "push" (power stroke) and sometimes a "pull" (the retarding forces in compression) and there are lots of "weird" twisting and standing waveforms trying to twist it apart. One reason you don't see much of straight 8 engines - longer crank to twist and break, and Ok, they are just long unwieldy engines anyway. A carefully designed D/M flywheel couple to a torsional vibration damping "nose" pulley goes a very long way to mitigating these effects. Take that very carefully engineered flywheel away and stick a big solid lump on in it's place and all these very carefully designed features disappear. You may then end up with a broken shaft - will you though? luck of the draw in my experience, some do some don't. More don't than do though.

Here's quite a good, reasonably non technical, feature about it: https://www.eeuroparts.com/blog/single-mass-vs-dual-mass-flywheel-why-convert/ It's a topic which many people have opinions on and there's lots on you tube too.

For me though, I'd now always replace like for like. If it's fitted with a D/M flywheel as standard I'd be replacing it with one when needed. There's also a great controversy about when to replace it. There are special tools available: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115278120054?hash=item1ad71c8476:g:ac8AAOSwenRf3IQ3 which check the wear of an existing D/M flywheel so you can decide whether to reuse it or not. Personally, unless I was going to be selling the vehicle fairly soon, I'd be fitting a flywheel every time. It's going to cost the whole job all over again if the flywheel fails after just a year or so, which, in my experience, they are prone to do.
 
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Thanks. Jeez! It looks like a new clutch is needed but hopefully not a DMF. I'l try to check if it has a DMF. It's a 2014 twin air trekking model.
 
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