Technical panda multi jet failed mot emissions test

[Peterjennings]

Hi All, new to the forum but hoping for some problem solving inspiration!
2008 panda 1.3 multi jet diesel.
Literally this week had brand new EGR and it's turbo reconditioned with a new actuator.
Full service, oil changed etc etc. Starts fine, no sign of engine light,
Under load there is excessive black smoke, not oily blue at all.
Went for mot today, started with emissions failed spectacularly and took it home.
Cannot find any splits in boost hoses, no codes in ecu..
Has anyone seen anything like this before??
Cheers all
Peter

 

[g8rpi]

Hi,
Who did the work on the car? Was it smokey before?
If it was a garage that did the work you should talk to them before doing anything else to the car. It could be any number things, but recent work or something caused by it must be the first suspect. If you try to fix it yourself the garage may refuse to do anything about it.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[daveofkent]

Did you give it a good run before the MOT?

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi All, new to the forum but hoping for some problem solving inspiration!
2008 panda 1.3 multi jet diesel.
Literally this week had brand new EGR and it's turbo reconditioned with a new actuator.
Full service, oil changed etc etc. Starts fine, no sign of engine light,
Under load there is excessive black smoke, not oily blue at all.
Went for mot today, started with emissions failed spectacularly and took it home.
Cannot find any splits in boost hoses, no codes in ecu..
Has anyone seen anything like this before??
Cheers all
Peter

hi, and welcome,
sounds weird..overfuelling.. / or limited oxygen for clean combustion.

:idea:did you have specific number from the test..may help to diagnose..,
Charlie - Oxford

 

[Peterjennings]

Hi all, sorry. To clarify..... I have done all the work described, yes it was smokey before I started, but had a stuck waste gate causing limp mode.
This had now been solved, but the smoke under load is the problem.
Looked at the boost hoses as I think the whistle seems a bit loud, nor faulty loud but more than normal... like escaping air, but no signs of leaks.....
Kind regards Peter
Ps..... I did go for a bit of a drive but every slow driver I could find help me up!
Test result was an average particulates 5.3k?? Should be under 3?
Black smoke when engine is under load... and potentially a tad slower than normal.

 

[Louie Bee]

The black stuff I tend to save up for tailgates in my mj.

Assuming you have no dpf...

If it's been driven Gentle for too long maybe time for the old Italian tune up to shift the black. Get some Lucas fuel cleaner in the tank find a nice long uphill stretch of motorway and hold it in third between 3.5 to 4k until you run out of black stuff.

If the egr was seized and actuator sticking there is a good chance of prolonged gentle driving. Think I read the egr only opens above 3k.. You've probably got the egr gas cooler full of crap. Maybe needs a good chance to have a nice warm with plenty of fresh exhaust gass through it... See Italian tune up as above and watch the tailgater back off or disappear into a cloud of particulate matter through the rear view mirror.

It should clear after a while then you'll have to save it up so you can do it again... Or go for the MOT.

Fail on owt else?

 

[Peterjennings]

Hi, thanks for the reply, I didn't bother going on with the test I know the garage well, noticed the smoke on run over so asked he check emissions at beginning.
Can this cooler be cleaned off the car? Problem is no mot currently and I'm limited on motorways! (Live on iow)
Would this also affect performance? Ie make it slightly slower?
Oddly I would say the problem is only when warm.... does seem to be running rich, seems like less smoke oddly when I first start it, though there are no starting problems as all...... it's odd, the tester said it might just need a thrash but I'm reluctant, but I am new to the multi jet.
Also the turbo whistle seems louder..... only a bit... it really is like a split boost hose..... except I cannot find a leak...
Cheers
Peter

 

[g8rpi]

<SNIP>
Problem is no mot currently and I'm limited on motorways! (Live on iow)
<SNIP>
Also the turbo whistle seems louder..... only a bit... it really is like a split boost hose..... except I cannot find a leak...
Cheers
Peter

Hi, if on IOW tust thrash it and let us know how much over 70 it goes

More seriously,
Have you checked the intercooler? it can leak casing same effect as leaky hose.
Do you have Multiecuscan? this can give useful clues.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi, thanks for the reply, I didn't bother going on with the test I know the garage well, noticed the smoke on run over so asked he check emissions at beginning.
Can this cooler be cleaned off the car?
Also the turbo whistle seems louder..... only a bit... it really is like a split boost hose..... except I cannot find a leak...
Cheers
Peter

IF the cooler is laden with oil ( from the recirc. gasses condensing )

AS A TEST - removing the hose - so the turbo is getting clean = atmospheric air, then it should run cleaner.

had all this 15 years ago on a 1.9TD Fiat,
the cooler was removed and stood upside down overnight while it drained.

I'm not convinced an oil laden cooler would make a noise though..
trouble is - we listen harder..and maybe exaggerate what was previously "normal.."

reading codes/ pressure could be a good start.

 

[Louie Bee]

Hmm there seems to be 2 coolers... one between the turbo and the inlet manifold (after cooler)



and the EGR cooler.



both streams feed into the inlet manifold and difused (mixed) after that point. So the EGR cooler would be between the exhaust manifold and the inlet manifold.

The after cooler could be full of blowby oil from the breather circuit, the EGR cooler full of whatever come out of the engine and blocks the EGR.

Don't think you can get clean air into the inlet manifold by taking a pipe off the turbo as only the air filter is before the turbo, and would have no impact on either cooler.

Before all that the code reader would probabley be a good start point as I could be a mile off... could be a something totley different like the map sensor for example. diagnostics is always better than swapnostics.

 

[Peterjennings]

Hi all, thanks for the replies, I have scanned it, no codes stored..... I am leaning towards the egr gas cooler being blocked...am going to attempt to extract it tomorrow.
I pressurised the intercooler and associated pipe work with compressed air and couldn't find any leaks.
I will take the gas cooler off first then go from there, thanks all again!
Peter

 

[Louie Bee]

Good luck. Please take a pic of what you find in the egr cooler.

Maybe any pipes each side of the egr need cleaning too while you are at it.

 

[bluejohn125]

Doesn't seem that the IOW is the ideal habitat for a high-tech Turbo-Diesel!

It could be that the new fresh components are working better than before and exaggerating an existing problem. I'd keep on checking and refreshing stuff... the oil blockage theories seem reasonable but you did say black soot not blue smoke so I don't know really ... there must be classic or modern reasons for this to happen.

Still like the idea of an Italian tune-up for a frustrated Fiat!

 

[Peterjennings]

Yes black smoke under load, checked the cooler last night, blew it out with compressed air, it's only a bit of smoke, seems better but without an emissions tester....... no faults stored in ecu, no smoke at idle..... could it be that a thrash is all it needs? It will have rum slowly for many years here....
As there are no clues I guess injectors next but it's perfect at idle.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

When I lived permanently on Gozo (island is only 7x4 miles) there was nowhere to boot my car. I only noticed the drop in performance after I took it over to Sicily where everybody thrashes their motors. After I came back to Gozo I realised that the car was faster and running without smoke.

Belt it where you can, especially just before an Mot.

 

[Louie Bee]

Yes the tune up... even 2nd gear up hill as long as it's between 3 and 4k ish. Hold it until the cloud clears.

Get some of this in before hand Lucas Oil 10020 Fuel Treatment: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

I put a whole bottle in about half a tank. Should go through the MOT with it in. Can brim fill after the cloud has gone.

I always try and run Lucas cleaner through the tank before the MOT. Also blast the cloud away once a week though I do 40 miles most days in my mj.

 

[Peterjennings]

Ah right, yes I'm considering just going the long way to the mot and driving in 3rd all the way!.... wondering about air flow meter, interestingly if you disconnect it the engine light does not come on or store an error code.... interestingly it didn't seem to run much different with it unplugged....

 

[Goudrons]

Literally this week had brand new EGR and it's turbo reconditioned with a new actuator.

Heavy black smoke is usually due to a fuel/air imbalance.
Most diesel puff a bit when cold, on gear change or when hammered.

Obviously there are two sides that need looking at.
Air intake and fueling.

Without some serious testing kit (and knowing what it should be doing and when) it can be hard to find faults, but some things can be tested.

Failed EGRs (even new ones don't always work correctly) starve the engine of air by pumping in exhaust gases to the inlet side at the wrong time.
You can often blank off the EGR's exhaust feed for a short time and see if the smoke improves.

You mention odd sounds, this could be air leak after the turbo, this would certainly give you smoke.

I've suffered this myself
Quite a big split in a hose was very hard to detect. Mainly because it would run ok stationary at any rpm, but only acted up when moving and the engine and turbo was under some load (and I couldn't feckin' see!).
I ended up stripping the lot down before I found what was quite an obvious split!

Air leaks between MAF and turbo don't make any sounds, but the results are similar.

As would an incorrectly set wastegate actuator, if it's dumping boost too early.

Either of these would more than likely cause a drop in performance.

The soot from the EGR and engine oil blowby in the inlet can cause a horrid gunk that can bung up inlet manifolds and that can restrict air flow too, it's worth checking/cleaning the inlet manifold and while it's off, check the inlet ports in the head as these can gum up too.

Sure the MAF might be faulty, you really need to log the readings with a scan tool over different rpms and at least see if it responds to increasing air passing it, but without knowing what it should read at what rpm, this isn't going to tell you if it's lazy due to contamination, but you should get an idea if it's responding in a timely manor.

There's not a lot you can self test on the fueling side, worn or dirty injectors are hard to detect in situ, but if you can remove them there are a few specialists around that can test them for you for a small fee.

 

[Peterjennings]

Dear all, quick update, took the little beauty back for retest today, went the long way and gave her a spanking, straight through no problem what so ever! Moral is.. . Slow running isn't always kindest... Thrash to the maximum all! Thanks again.....
PS sorry I didn't manage a pic of the EGR gas cooler as I only removed it far enough to get the compressed air through to blow the soot out . ... but the method was compressed air down the pipe that goes to the inlet manifold..... lots of soot came out!
Cheers
Pete

 

[Louie Bee]

Thanks for letting us know. May help others in future.

No probs with the lack of pic. You can start saving up a black cloud again to unleash on a tail gate lol.