Technical Panda bonfire?

[scott gilmour95]

Right at the end of my last nerve with this car. P1172 fuel air mixture on for nearly 2 years first happening very rarely now it only takes a couple of days to return. Had new map sensor, lambda sensors, new cat, manifold gasket even a new engine! Genuine fuel cap as came with an aftermarket locking unit. A new carbon filter unit. Absolutly nothing left i can think of. Loads of threads and peiple just say ooh sorted now and no answers! Any help pleassseeeeee ??!?!?!?!

 

[TobiasBB]

Did you exchange intakemanifold/fuel injectors with the new motor?

 

[scott gilmour95]

They are the same original parts but surely a fuel pressure and or injector code would come up ?

 

[koalar]

One of those code that has a lot of different causes. Copied this from another thread.


The ECU has run out of range in adapting the mixture in reference to the O2 Sensor signal (multiplicative adaptation) and/or in reference to the engine running conditions (additive adaptation).
Possible causes:
- Engine Temperature sensor/circuit defective, but the signal still in realistic range.
- Fuel Pressure incorrect
- Fuel Injector(s) leaking
- Fuel Injectors clogged
- Incomplete combustion (ignition or compression problem, excess O2 in the exhaust)
- Vacuum leak (lean mixture)
- Oxygen Sensor defective or contaminated with silica (Voltage change extremely slow)
- Exhaust system leak upstream of the O2 Sensor (stray air brings extra O2 making the mixture to appear lean)
- Fuel Evaporation Control system defective
- vehicle driven out of fuel (tank empty)







Personally before changing anything I would try and diagnose as much as possible.

Plot the two lambda sensors with Multiecuscan would be a good starting place.

 

[DaveMcT]

A weak fuel pump will also cause fuel starvation issues.

 

[scott gilmour95]

Have found an injector rail on ebay for 40 quid mights be worth a try just worried about swollen rubbers as they can be a nightmare to get in and its just a huge cost the fuel pump :/ might have to wait untill next months oay day also always truggled to turn the plastic ring all the way to the correct markings when te fitting pumps what is everyone elses solution ?

 

[TobiasBB]

Have found an injector rail on ebay for 40 quid mights be worth a try just worried about swollen rubbers as they can be a nightmare to get in and its just a huge cost the fuel pump :/ might have to wait untill next months oay day also always truggled to turn the plastic ring all the way to the correct markings when te fitting pumps what is everyone elses solution ?

Try to take out each injector at a time, and spray some cleany thing through them, while giving them short bursts of electricity.. i found some good tutorials on how to clean fuel injectors on the cheap on youtube.. i would link them but Im on my phone atm.. then you could find if they are bad or just needed cleaning..

 

[DaveMcT]

My bike has an in tank pump that looks like something form any petrol car.

This was easy to fit and solved the fuel hesitation issues. It never got bad enough to cause fuel starvation.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121906385116?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[scott gilmour95]

The issue has been ongoing for about 2 years so would expect a clean wont do anything as they now throw the engine light on within a couple of days

 

[DaveMcT]

My bike has had uneven running for at least 18 months stuttering starts stalling when letting clutch out stalling at end of street, a slight hunting at speed. All have been solved with a £30 fuel pump and time to fit it.

As the car is more hassle to get to, it's worth testing the fuel pump pressure. Google or another inmate will tell you what the pressure should be.

 

[koalar]

A weak fuel pump will also cause fuel starvation issues.

How do we know it starvation


Error is run out of adjustment. Could be anything


First thing to do is see why.


Log the two lambda sensors would help to identify what's going on and would be a good start.


Throw enough parts at a problem will fix it. Sometimes an early guess sometimes after considerable unnecessary cost.


Picture of spark plugs would also help diagnose the problem. Also are they all the same would eliminate a single injector fault.

 

[DaveMcT]

How do we know it starvation


Error is run out of adjustment. Could be anything


First thing to do is see why.


Log the two lambda sensors would help to identify what's going on and would be a good start.


Throw enough parts at a problem will fix it. Sometimes an early guess sometimes after considerable unnecessary cost.


Picture of spark plugs would also help diagnose the problem. Also are they all the same would eliminate a single injector fault.

We don't know it's fuel starvation so it needs a fuel pressure test, but what does that cost? As other areas have found nothing, £30 for a new fuel pump on a high miles car is unlikely to do any harm and probably cheaper than a fuel system pressure tester that gets used just once.

I do know that my weak fuel pump caused all sorts of strange issues probably due to poor atomisation and pauses in fuel flow.

This will also confuse Lambda readings. Less fuel injected than the ECU expects will cause high O2 in exhaust (unused oxygen). The ECU richens the mixture which soots the spark plugs, causes more missfire and more strange O2 readings.

 

[koalar]

There's always more than one way to crack an egg.


Checking all the spark plugs would be a good start cost nothing.
Would identify if its rich or lean. If ones not firing and so on.

Reading the sensors to see why it thinks its outside normal parameters. Could be its running fine and just a sensor or wiring making it think it not..

Could be 101 things staring from a simple blocked air filter but until we get some feedback we can only suggest every component in the fuel air system

 

[scott gilmour95]

Sorry about the late reply have not been recieving notifications :/ and lambdas are all over the place has had new sensors cat and gasket to eliminate exhaust side. Temp gauage was reading wierd my scanner reads in 1 sec intervals and would go from 81 to 90+ and drop about 10° in a single second! So has been changed and reads normal when ever you reset fuel paramiters lambdas read okay for a while. Usually watched them on a drive home from work and by time i reach the motorway they are all over again esp no2 reading over .45 i know no1 is supposed to go up and down as the fueling is alterd. Has had new plugs but will try another set just to be on the safe side. However before head gasket failure no2 on engine 1 the lambdas would have a white silica film on them enfine no2 uses no water what so ever and runs really nice however when changing the cat took out no 1 lambda sensor so see the damage and again a slight white/grey colouring. So assuming its running lean therfore running hotter. Which would explain a second head failure after 18k in less than a year ?

 

[DaveMcT]

My lambdas are normally a light grey colour. The bike lambdas went sooty black when I had a faulty ignition coil. Unburnt fuel due to intermittent spark is interpreted (by the ECU) as a weak fuel mixture so it richens the fuel flow causing all sorts of odd symptoms.

The weak fuel flow never raised any faults on the bike. The fix was found by checking everything else and realising the fuel pump was old so swap it out.

The problem was also worse with low fuel level in the tank. I was surprised that 12" of fuel height could have such an effect but it was another symptom solved with the new pump.

BTW, does the car have a fuel pump controller to vary pump output according to demand and a pressure regulator to maintain adequate pressure at the fuel rail? If so that's another thing to check.

 

[scott gilmour95]

Nah nothing as variable as that :/ will see if my machine will give me fuel pressure at the rail before cranking and while running but no idea what the values should be

 

[koalar]

Sorry about the late reply have not been recieving notifications :/ and lambdas are all over the place has had new sensors cat and gasket to eliminate exhaust side. Temp gauage was reading wierd my scanner reads in 1 sec intervals and would go from 81 to 90+ and drop about 10° in a single second! So has been changed and reads normal when ever you reset fuel paramiters lambdas read okay for a while. Usually watched them on a drive home from work and by time i reach the motorway they are all over again esp no2 reading over .45 i know no1 is supposed to go up and down as the fueling is alterd. Has had new plugs but will try another set just to be on the safe side. However before head gasket failure no2 on engine 1 the lambdas would have a white silica film on them enfine no2 uses no water what so ever and runs really nice however when changing the cat took out no 1 lambda sensor so see the damage and again a slight white/grey colouring. So assuming its running lean therfore running hotter. Which would explain a second head failure after 18k in less than a year ?

Cheers.

Useful diagnostic information

Strange it start okay then looses its settings.

Try logging the air temperature. Does it start at ambient and rise slowly?

Can you post a photo of the plugs

 

[scott gilmour95]

Ill see about getting plugs out on my lunch break today when i have been changing them i have had no worrying signs all have seemed okay to be honest the only thing i can say i have noticed is say if you have to be quick joining a fast moving road or round about it cam accellorate in stages sometimes feeling hesitant at times but only intermittently

 

[DaveMcT]

I have noticed is say if you have to be quick joining a fast moving road or round about it can accellorate in stages sometimes feeling hesitant at times but only intermittently

Sorry to bang on about the fuel supply but this is what my bike would do. It's fully electronic inlet port injection system very similar to a car and needs a decent pressure at the injectors.

Thinking out of the box - I presume the revs are rising in time with road speed. Clutch can also cause these symptoms but usually you'll hear the revs rise though speed doesn't increase.

 

[scott gilmour95]

Had new clutchbless than 5k ago