General Panda 4x4s easily stolen (midlands UK)

[MickG]

I’ve mentioned here before that my 4x4 was nicked in September. This weekend one of my neighbours called me over and said he’d just been talking to a friend of his (different part of Sheffield). His wife had always liked the looks of the little Panda 4x4 so they bought a second hand one. THEY HAD IT FOR 2 DAYS!!! …before it got nicked then later turned up torched in a park. These beauties can be nicked with no keys as long as you have an immobiliser defeat device and someone around southwest Sheffield has one. Word to the wise, if you’re around here then buy a wheel lock or similar. Just sayin. M

For info, the immobiliser defeat device I found on the internet only claimed to work up to the 2017 models. After that presumably they changed the immobiliser tech then and you’re safe. Lucky duckies.

 

[Marcus Daly]

Word to the wise, if you’re around here then buy a wheel lock or similar.

As discussed in your earlier thread on this issue, the only steering locks that fit the Panda steering wheel are the Milenco and the Disclok. None of the more popular Stoplocks will fit.

For info, the immobiliser defeat device I found on the internet only claimed to work up to the 2017 models. After that presumably they changed the immobiliser tech then and you’re safe. Lucky duckies.

The one my motor trader mate had nicked was a 70 plate, so later ones are at no less risk.

 

[MickG]

Thanks, I remember you saying in the previous thread, that’s useful. Haven’t seen one in a while but they used to sell handbrake locks that would go over the handbrake and clamp to the gearstick so you couldn’t release the brake or change gear. They might be an option if wheel locks are hard to get.

 

[varesecrazy]

Stoplock,Krooklok, Disclock

They are all effective deterrents

If they want it for parts..they will tow it away still locked


As I said.. a friend with an AudiRS Had a homemade PedalLock Fabricated..as they were being driven away so frequently

Any deterrent would help keep it on your driveway.

 

[porta]

Remember wehn everyone had an alarm fitted? Well now they’re making a comeback the selling point is ‘cannot be defeated by scanners/defeat devices’
And they list the main ‘culprits’ as being BMW Jag/LR…that’s not to say Pandas and 500Abarths aren’t desirable, just that it’s still top end motors that head the list of thefts…it’s an arm race that’s never going to go away unless you fit that South African panda sill flamethrower kit

 

[AndyRKett]

Remember wehn everyone had an alarm fitted? Well now they’re making a comeback the selling point is ‘cannot be defeated by scanners/defeat devices’
And they list the main ‘culprits’ as being BMW Jag/LR…that’s not to say Pandas and 500Abarths aren’t desirable, just that it’s still top end motors that head the list of thefts…it’s an arm race that’s never going to go away unless you fit that South African panda sill flamethrower kit

All completely wrong.

Never was there a time in history that “everyone” had an alarm fitted. In the 80s and early 90s car theft was so easy people would have aftermarket alarms fitted to cars to try and prevent them disappearing but otherwise no cars were factory fitted with alarms. Chips in keys became popular in the early 90s, which stemmed the thefts to some degree but again cars didn’t have alarms.
Now many German brands fit alarms as standard but Fiat have NEVER fitted alarms to cars as standard.

Of course Alarms can be defeated, do you think the £100K+ range rovers that keep getting stolen don’t have alarms? Many high end cars do have alarms as standard, the main issue is that if you steal the key that doesn’t really help… but you don’t need the Key what you need is a device that will read the “keyless” entry signal from the key (usually hanging on someone’s key ring on the back of the front door. Then replicate the signal near the car, doors unlock alarm turns off, and therefore they now have access to the car and more importantly the OBDII port which they plug into, program a new key there and then in a few seconds and drive the car off.
Even breaking a window and quickly plugging in can kill any alarm and start the process to copy a key or start the engine.

These cars DO have alarms. Its just the technology that makes them secure is easily overridden if you have the kit to do so.

Now manufactures are counteracting this with locked OBDII ports, you’ll need a code from the manufacture to access the port preventing would be thieves from replicating a new key… this is an ideal situation for manufactures as it means that you at home can no longer do any work on the electrics of your car you will have to take it to the dealership and pay them a fortune.

If theives want to take a car, they will literally turn up with a low loader and pick it up off the street so nothing will actually stop car theft

 

[porta]

All completely wrong.

Never was there a time in history that “everyone” had an alarm fitted. In the 80s and early 90s car theft was so easy people would have aftermarket alarms fitted to cars to try and prevent them disappearing but otherwise no cars were factory fitted with alarms. Chips in keys became popular in the early 90s, which stemmed the thefts to some degree but again cars didn’t have alarms.
Now many German brands fit alarms as standard but Fiat have NEVER fitted alarms to cars as standard.

Of course Alarms can be defeated, do you think the £100K+ range rovers that keep getting stolen don’t have alarms? Many high end cars do have alarms as standard, the main issue is that if you steal the key that doesn’t really help… but you don’t need the Key what you need is a device that will read the “keyless” entry signal from the key (usually hanging on someone’s key ring on the back of the front door. Then replicate the signal near the car, doors unlock alarm turns off, and therefore they now have access to the car and more importantly the OBDII port which they plug into, program a new key there and then in a few seconds and drive the car off.
Even breaking a window and quickly plugging in can kill any alarm and start the process to copy a key or start the engine.

These cars DO have alarms. Its just the technology that makes them secure is easily overridden if you have the kit to do so.

Now manufactures are counteracting this with locked OBDII ports, you’ll need a code from the manufacture to access the port preventing would be thieves from replicating a new key… this is an ideal situation for manufactures as it means that you at home can no longer do any work on the electrics of your car you will have to take it to the dealership and pay them a fortune.

If theives want to take a car, they will literally turn up with a low loader and pick it up off the street so nothing will actually stop car theft

Perhaps before stating ‘all completely wrong’ you should read in that I’m talking about aftermarket alarms
they all but disappeared from sale (except motorbike alarms) as immobilisers and alarms became factory fit…
and, as I said, they’re making a comeback, with the selling point that they can’t be ‘grabbed’ like the factory fit ones fromBMW etc….

 

[AndyRKett]

Perhaps before stating ‘all completely wrong’ you should read in that I’m talking about aftermarket alarms
they all but disappeared from sale (except motorbike alarms) as immobilisers and alarms became factory fit…
and, as I said, they’re making a comeback, with the selling point that they can’t be ‘grabbed’ like the factory fit ones fromBMW etc….

Again not true. There was a glut of cheap and very terrible alarms in the 90s and early 2000s but most of these you could defeat in 3 seconds with a pair of wire cutters, or worse, were just a flashing light. and an internal horn that would sound if you shook it around while activated. I have a toaster with more technology in it than these so called "alarms" but if you really want, google "car alarm" and you'll find you can still buy them.

People stopped buying them as they were pointless and the factory fit immobilizer was more secure.

The likes of proper Alarm systems never disappeared from sale Scorpion and Cobra alarm systems can still be bought and installed, but need to be professionally installed and people don't want to pay the hundreds of £££ a proper car alarm costs. These days they are also no better than the factory fit options.

The ratings for alarms from Thatcham, indicates there "resistance" to attack, i.e how long it takes to overcome the system there is no system that cannot be overcome.

 

[porta]

Again not true. There was a glut of cheap and very terrible alarms in the 90s and early 2000s but most of these you could defeat in 3 seconds with a pair of wire cutters, or worse, were just a flashing light. and an internal horn that would sound if you shook it around while activated. I have a toaster with more technology in it than these so called "alarms" but if you really want, google "car alarm" and you'll find you can still buy them.

People stopped buying them as they were pointless and the factory fit immobilizer was more secure.

The likes of proper Alarm systems never disappeared from sale Scorpion and Cobra alarm systems can still be bought and installed, but need to be professionally installed and people don't want to pay the hundreds of £££ a proper car alarm costs. These days they are also no better than the factory fit options.

The ratings for alarms from Thatcham, indicates there "resistance" to attack, i.e how long it takes to overcome the system there is no system that cannot be overcome.

Cobra and Scorpion (vodaphone) moved in with the manufactures to supply the factory fit…yes, you could still buy the alarms and yes, the ‘best’ were generally thatcham… but they were only as good as the fitter…I know as I went on the thatcham course and have the certification somewhere. I also had the Fiat/Lancia/Alfa training, first from Gemini, then Phillips and also the dealer training from, wait for it, scorpion and cobra…general sales of alarms dropped steadily wehn factory fit came in (as I stated and experienced being an auto electrician not just on FCA but almost every brand except the newbies and EVs), the alarm/immobiliser/gps tracking firms moved in with the car manufacturers and supplied all the research, tech, software to talk to ecu’s etc. Private sales to joe public dropped off a cliff with mainly fleet and haulage sales plugging the gap and, as previously mentioned the sales are once again increasing due to car manufacturers not keeping up with latest scanners/grabbers etc etc but the manufacturers of security equipment once again keeping the pace up…they even supply plug n play security as they know the systems they helped create!
I’ve come to realise that you’re a bit like the bloke on twitter that argued against covid lockdown and quoted a medical paper on pandemics, then disappeared because it was pointed out that the paper didn’t say that, and he was arguing with the author of the paper! For which this forum has a very good function, muting by ‘ignore’

 

[AndyRKett]

let’s go back to what you claimed…

Remember wehn everyone had an alarm fitted? Well now they’re making a comeback the selling point is ‘cannot be defeated by scanners/defeat devices’

as you’ve just proven in your massive rant, they never went away. clearly there was never a time everyone had one fitted, maybe in high crime areas, if you had a fancy car you might, but where I grew up you could leave your car in the street with the keys in it and no one would touch it.
And yes any alarm or immobiliser system can be defeated with devices, but whos gonna spend £1000, to have an alarm fitted to a car that already has an alarm, that they’re only going to keep for 3-4 years ?
I couldn’t care less what your background is, anyone can claim anything on the internet and there are comments you make in there that make me question your claims.

Go back through my history on here, over 10 years you’ll find I’m more likely to be the person to have written the paper

Feel free to ignore me but doesn’t stop other people seeing what I write.

 

[s130]

MOD here:

Can we cool these discussions between parties off a little please.

 

[AndyRKett]

MOD here:

Can we cool these discussions between parties off a little please.

There seems to be a growing issue with people being unable to Discuss and make a comment and that comment means something is 100% true, if anyone says anything against it, they take offence. (sign of the times)

Hopefully this has been resolved by @porta blocking me. He can't then take umbrage with people disagreeing with him if he just blocks them all.

 

[The Panda Nut]

MOD here:

Can we cool these discussions between parties off a little please.

I think we are suffering from two differing personalities and styles of writing here. I can see both sides of the precise and the laid back. I was alaways told my emails were rude at work. I eventually sat back and looked a bit harder. I still dont think this was the case but I did realsie in the end that I needed to adjust and soften. It really used to P*** me orf!! We all do need to remember that this is a chat not a formal negotiation. And of course not wind each other up. Blocking is good to ensure a cooling off when something annoys you. Better than getting more wound up? So I agree with the MOD. I get stressed by escalating arguments. Argue by all means but this is best done face to face when you can see if its meant in jest or getting serious. Discussion is good.

 

[The Panda Nut]

PS This is more stress about having an irreplacable, easily nicked and increasingly popular car, likely to be stolen to order. Im feeling the need to go buy an expensive security device that I dont want to have rattling around the car for my trips to Manchester My car is normally kept in a pretty secure garage blocked in by two other cars but it has to come out somethimes. The trouble with the theiveing scumbags is they are just as likely to torch it where it stands if you have immobilised it so Im not sure how effective these devices really are at preventing a totla loss.

 

[AndyRKett]

PS This is more stress about having an irreplacable, easily nicked and increasingly popular car, likely to be stolen to order. Im feeling the need to go buy an expensive security device that I dont want to have rattling around the car for my trips to Manchester My car is normally kept in a pretty secure garage blocked in by two other cars but it has to come out somethimes. The trouble with the theiveing scumbags is they are just as likely to torch it where it stands if you have immobilised it so Im not sure how effective these devices really are at preventing a totla loss.

security wise, fitting something like a switch to the Can lines on the OBD port is one way you can ensure that someone isn't able to program a key and drive it away. basically any would be thief would not know about the switch you can leave the switch "off" and only turn it on if you need to access the OBD port, or turn it on if its going into the garage.

You can also buy locks that go over the port but there presence is obvious and I don't believe they are difficult to break.

Steeringwheel locks are more secure because even if they can tackle the obd port they then have to tackle the steering lock. Basically the way to stop your car being stolen is to make it harder to steal then the next car a long, why bother with yours if there is another one with no steering lock.

I think you'd be looking at £1000 for something like a cobra or scorpion alarm these days, I am sure fiat used to do ad on alarm systems which linked into the Can system so maybe talk to fiat dealer?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30380185...ura7VfA6IXhD3yWO4uSdfrkAlt|tkp:Bk9SR-it5OLqYQ like this but this is for the older Panda so maybe there is a newer model.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I like the idea of a switch in the lines as its probably cheap as well as effective. I know B all about what all the wires do. I imagine you would need to interrupt something that didnt itself cause the ECU heart murmours. Any ideas about what to switch would be good. I an thinking low voltage might be switchable with a micro switch which itself could be small and hard to find / see? Trouble with alarms is noone takes any notice of them. I had a company car that had one which used to go off at random. I drove it 100's of miles (in total) with the alarm screaming. I never had a comment from a single soul.

 

[s130]

As pointed out if they want it that badly they will get it be that a car, trailer, burglary or heaven forbid petty vengence.

Putting switches on OBD / CAN lines has to be done carefully as just splicing in, running to hidden position for switch etc. can cause other problems.

For our 130TC it is steering wheel and Autoloc handbrake lock. Even have Krooklock steering to pedal lock as well and have used all three on occasions (paranoia). Removal of the Digplex ignition unit would stop the engine (hens teeth these are) as would the removal of any engine ECU for vehicles left in longer term unattended storage.

On the CAN side there are/were units that a bit like the Fiat SGW module than can be added "in-line" and hidded that require a sequence of "events" after the ignition is on before a start is allowed. e.g. left indicator, brake pedal, wiper flip, right indicator.

As with all security it is a balance of praticality and convenience over security level of protection required.

 

[AndyRKett]

OBD port switching isn't delicate. They are just wires, as long as you don't cross them, then cutting a wire and putting a switch in isn't going to cause a world of problems any more than the connectors on each end of those wires.

Best to look at the Pin out for the port and pick an appropriate wire that would isolate the lines that carry data, rather than power or ground.

Something like a Dip switch would be perfectly adequate. A micro switch tends to be a momentary switch only making contact when pressed, so maybe not what you want.
I know several people who have done this with no ill effects.

Even then, this doesn't stop someone lifting it and the majority of these cars are stolen for parts, if they can't get it to start it will become a parts car pretty quickly anyway.

I remember in my LandRover days the LandRover magazines used to have adverts for a post that you would concrete into the ground then you would literally lock your car to the post to stop someone moving it off the drive.

 

[s130]

OBD port switching isn't delicate. They are just wires, as long as you don't cross them, then cutting a wire and putting a switch in isn't going to cause a world of problems any more than the connectors on each end of those wires.

Actually CAN wires are just NOT wires. They are a balanced and impedanced balanced/terminated communications highway. CAN Hi and CAN Lo plus possibly other on other cars.

Whilst wires (either twisted pairs or parallel) look and seem disturbable this is not always the case. I would just say CAUTION is required before tapping into any of the vehicles CAN / other interfaces. Personally I would not risk it.

The Fiat Stilo was one of Fiats 1st vehicles to adopt / use CAN and many dealers had big issues with problems where independent companies hand added alarm systems onto the CAN / Other signal lines. On the Stilo Abarth a common related issues was the Selespeed gearbox/system then not functioning correctly. FACT.

I would just suggest people be very cautious before tapping into modern vehicle communications paths/systems.

 

[porta]

Actually CAN wires are just NOT wires. They are a balanced and impedanced balanced/terminated communications highway. CAN Hi and CAN Lo plus possibly other on other cars.

Whilst wires (either twisted pairs or parallel) look and seem disturbable this is not always the case. I would just say CAUTION is required before tapping into any of the vehicles CAN / other interfaces. Personally I would not risk it.

The Fiat Stilo was one of Fiats 1st vehicles to adopt / use CAN and many dealers had big issues with problems where independent companies hand added alarm systems onto the CAN / Other signal lines. On the Stilo Abarth a common related issues was the Selespeed gearbox/system then not functioning correctly. FACT.

I would just suggest people be very cautious before tapping into modern vehicle communications paths/systems.

Very true, which is why wehn you spec a high end alarm it’s either a qulalified fitter job or it’s a plug n play that comes with the specific plug for your vehicle!