I have a 2004 panda 1.2 with a rotted rear axle ( spring cups). I have a chance to buy a 2009 Fiat 500 rear axle with minimal rust. They look identical, although i read the track is a few mm wider. Will it just bolt on? The 3 bolt plates are identical.
Technical PANDA 169 rear axle rot and swap.
- Thread starter john68
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Technical PANDA 169 rear axle rot and swap.
By "rotted" do you mean failed completely or just a bit scabby?
I've yet to see a failed one, although I know they do exist.
Mostly they look scabby but are actually just fine, and would just benefit from some attention.
Either way, search the forum for the post "Panda Axle repair" by DaveMcT.
I've yet to see a failed one, although I know they do exist.
Mostly they look scabby but are actually just fine, and would just benefit from some attention.
Either way, search the forum for the post "Panda Axle repair" by DaveMcT.
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Rotted spring pans can be repaired. Its probably easiest to take the axle off the car.
The 500 axle has a built in anti roll bar and 50mm wider track between wheel mounting hub faces. It bolts straight on and works fine with the wheels used on ordinary models. I've not measured but suspect the wider track would cause the 100HP tyres to rub the wheel arches.
It works with the 500 springs and rides nicely but its also significantly lower. I would go with the 169 springs.
My Panda rides and handles a lot better with the 500 axle so I'd say its well worth having. I would use the rubber springs pads top and bottom. If you want top level corrosion protection you can get an axle grit blasted and zinc metal sprayed for about £80 to £100.
The 500 axle has a built in anti roll bar and 50mm wider track between wheel mounting hub faces. It bolts straight on and works fine with the wheels used on ordinary models. I've not measured but suspect the wider track would cause the 100HP tyres to rub the wheel arches.
It works with the 500 springs and rides nicely but its also significantly lower. I would go with the 169 springs.
My Panda rides and handles a lot better with the 500 axle so I'd say its well worth having. I would use the rubber springs pads top and bottom. If you want top level corrosion protection you can get an axle grit blasted and zinc metal sprayed for about £80 to £100.
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I've changed quite a few of these rear axles now, the road springs push down the poorly designed cups they sit on,if caught in time, generous dollop of paint can see them saved
To answer the swap question I'm afraid I don't know but believe someone on this site has done it
To answer the swap question I'm afraid I don't know but believe someone on this site has done it
Thank you for the reply. I have the chance to buy a 2009 fiat 500 axle for approx £160 inc shipping. It also looks as though the Ford KA rear axle will fit, which i am also considering.
Only on the later cars (2010 model year onward) - an axle from a 2009 car probably won't have the reinforced rear beam with the built in ARB. All 500C's have the later type of beam.
All 500's have 50mm wider rear track than the 169 Panda, but all the bolt holes are the same - the difference is in the hub attachment plates.
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Everything is interchangeable - brakes, shock absorbers, springs, etc. The difference is a different shape hub mounting plate that carries the brake back plate and wheel bearing 1" further out on each side.
As JR says, earlier model 500s did not have the built in ARB so are not worth using unless you find one that's abnormally un-rusty.
F500 hub mounting bracket
169 Panda hub mounting bracket. Complete with rust that really wasn't as bad as it looks though now it's off he car, some welded reinforcement would not do any harm.
As JR says, earlier model 500s did not have the built in ARB so are not worth using unless you find one that's abnormally un-rusty.
F500 hub mounting bracket
169 Panda hub mounting bracket. Complete with rust that really wasn't as bad as it looks though now it's off he car, some welded reinforcement would not do any harm.
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It's sitting in my back yard with exactly that idea in mind. The plan is to reinforce where the spring pan gets the most stress. Then have it grit blasted and zinc sprayed. However the work would be at least £50 and zinc spray another £100. Rusty 169 axles cost £150. I doubt anyone will pay £300 for a refurb plus delivery.
I'm thinking about buying a 100HP which may well to need a new rear axle (many do). I'm pretty sure the 500 axle is too wide for the 100HP - wide wheels would hit wheel arches. It's fine on ordinary 169 versions.
Attachments
£50 to blast it clean seems reasonable but I can't say I'd pay £100 to zinc coat it unless it was for me and I has a nice silver car... just slap a few coats of decent paint on if it's an ordinary cheap Fiat...
Yours does look good though!
Yours does look good though!
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I think it was £50 to grit blast only or £80 to blast and zinc spray. Basically while they have it they may as well do the whole job. Paint will cost £30 and won't be as good as hot metal spray. Though (again) I would etch prime and paint it anyway because I'm a geek like that.
I added £50 for welding, though I suspect mine is still ok as long as the corrosion goes no further.
Back to the original story - the car handles and rides so much better with the 500 axle I think it really is the best move. I would re-use the Panda springs but only because the 500 springs are too short.
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500 axle update
It's now been though the winter and Ive had enough of the low riding back ends put the 169 springs back under the car. Its a quick job.
Loosen rear wheel nuts.
Chock front wheels and jack up the back end until the wheels are 3" off the floor.
Support the car on axle stands under the rear sill jacking points. Unless you have special slotted axle stands, use a 150mm length of 25 x 50 wood under the axle stands to protect the sills.
Remove the rear wheels.
Trolley jack under the centre of the rear beam does the lifting duties.
Put the jack under a spring pan and remove the shock absorber bottom bolt. They are long and fine threaded so a battery power drill is great for winding them out. Don't forget to et the torque limiting ratchet.
Move the jack and do the other side and remove it's bolt. Adjust the jack so the drill isn't labouring. They are long bolts so can bind. I had treated mine with anti seize paste, so they came out nicely.
The axle will now drop down allowing the springs to come out.
Swap the springs. To protect the paint, I put spring top rubbers at both ends. Those who want to lower the car can so so at low cost with 500 rear springs. The rubbers on both ends give it a slight lift if you don't want it too radical.
Put the jack under a spring pan and lift it enough to get the shock absorber bolt back in. You need to do each side separately because jacking the axle mid-line list the car before the bolt can fit.
Repeat on the opposite side. The power drill will wind the bolts in quickly.
While under there give the whole lot a good clean and spray with Waxoyl.
Refit the wheels and drop the car off it's axle stands.
Today away your stuff and - Job done.
It's now been though the winter and Ive had enough of the low riding back ends put the 169 springs back under the car. Its a quick job.
Loosen rear wheel nuts.
Chock front wheels and jack up the back end until the wheels are 3" off the floor.
Support the car on axle stands under the rear sill jacking points. Unless you have special slotted axle stands, use a 150mm length of 25 x 50 wood under the axle stands to protect the sills.
Remove the rear wheels.
Trolley jack under the centre of the rear beam does the lifting duties.
Put the jack under a spring pan and remove the shock absorber bottom bolt. They are long and fine threaded so a battery power drill is great for winding them out. Don't forget to et the torque limiting ratchet.
Move the jack and do the other side and remove it's bolt. Adjust the jack so the drill isn't labouring. They are long bolts so can bind. I had treated mine with anti seize paste, so they came out nicely.
The axle will now drop down allowing the springs to come out.
Swap the springs. To protect the paint, I put spring top rubbers at both ends. Those who want to lower the car can so so at low cost with 500 rear springs. The rubbers on both ends give it a slight lift if you don't want it too radical.
Put the jack under a spring pan and lift it enough to get the shock absorber bolt back in. You need to do each side separately because jacking the axle mid-line list the car before the bolt can fit.
Repeat on the opposite side. The power drill will wind the bolts in quickly.
While under there give the whole lot a good clean and spray with Waxoyl.
Refit the wheels and drop the car off it's axle stands.
Today away your stuff and - Job done.
Re: 500 axle update
When you say rubbers at both ends, do you mean the identical rubbers that are used at the top? That's what I’ve bought and had a play around with, but I’m worried that because of the shape of the cup and rubbers it would trap water and make matters worse. So plan B was to use some Tein spring wraps at the bottom and hope for the best.
I'm just unsure about the rubbers, unless you could enlighten me; perhaps take some pictures of your setup?
Adam
When you say rubbers at both ends, do you mean the identical rubbers that are used at the top? That's what I’ve bought and had a play around with, but I’m worried that because of the shape of the cup and rubbers it would trap water and make matters worse. So plan B was to use some Tein spring wraps at the bottom and hope for the best.
I'm just unsure about the rubbers, unless you could enlighten me; perhaps take some pictures of your setup?
Adam
In the end I filled the spring pans out with jb weld so the pans were almost flat, ensuring it has better drainage. I then painted over the repair and used the same rubber pads from the top of the spring as a buffer. It seems to have worked! With the new springs and rubber pads the ride is a fair bit higher.
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To add some more to my 500 axle story.
Firstly, JB weld will make a rough surface look smooth but it will not add any strength. If the axle is badly rusted it will break just the same. If you look closely at the spring pans you will see the rust is worst about 30mm away from the weld onto the swing arm. I believe this is corrosion happening at the highest stress area. Patch weld extra metal from swing arm to about 50mm inboard of that rusted area.
The 500 axle rides too high with 169 springs and it rides VERY hard. However, 500 springs with the rubber pads (normally fitted to top only) fitted to top AND bottom (total four pads needed) will restore the ride height and the ride quality is great.
If you get a 500 axle, be sure to also get the springs and rubber seats/pads. You then you'll have four pads so both ends of springs can be cushioned. While you are at it, get the brakes and everything else as they are likely to be better than what's on the car.
Firstly, JB weld will make a rough surface look smooth but it will not add any strength. If the axle is badly rusted it will break just the same. If you look closely at the spring pans you will see the rust is worst about 30mm away from the weld onto the swing arm. I believe this is corrosion happening at the highest stress area. Patch weld extra metal from swing arm to about 50mm inboard of that rusted area.
The 500 axle rides too high with 169 springs and it rides VERY hard. However, 500 springs with the rubber pads (normally fitted to top only) fitted to top AND bottom (total four pads needed) will restore the ride height and the ride quality is great.
If you get a 500 axle, be sure to also get the springs and rubber seats/pads. You then you'll have four pads so both ends of springs can be cushioned. While you are at it, get the brakes and everything else as they are likely to be better than what's on the car.
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Just a follow up. I now have the Fiat 500 rear beam fitted. A real pain in the arse. Everthing was rotted, bolts etc. Replaced rear beam , brake cylinders , brake drums,bearings. Managed to save the main brake pipes by burning off the plastic coating with a blow torch and using liberal amounts of WD40. I also used the Fiat 500 rear shocks as they came with the beam and were new. I need to replace them soon with panda shocks as they are too short and keep the springs compressed, leading to a bumpy ride.
The centre of the spring cup fell out when i was hitting the brake drum with a hammer trying to get it off. The cup literally fell onto the floor leaving just the outer edges where the spring sits. Every single bolt was also completely rotten to the point where i couldn't remove even the rear shocks from the beam.
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Pulling out an old thread but I think this needs to be added.
The 500 axle swap works fine if you get the whole thing -
# Axle complete with pivot posts.
# Hubs
# Brakes - complete
# Springs with top rubbers (169 springs are too hard)
# Dampers if they are good condition.
The rubber brake hoses at the axle pivot will have to be cut otherwise you risk twisting the aluminium brake pipes. The fragment can then be spun off the flare nut. Heating the flare nuts with a gas lighter flame is enough to soften the plastic coating so you can turn the nut. Clean the coating and clean off the alloy corrosion underneath. Protect the bare metal with a high solids copper paste.
Disconnect hand brake cables and ABS wires remove dampers from the car.
Use a trolley jack under the centre of the axle beam. Measure and pen mark it. DO NOT use the mid point "nib" its not in the middle.
The axle pivot bolts are difficult to access and will not allow the axle to come out easily. Leave these in place as a complete assembly.
Loosen all six large bolts holding the axle pivot brackets to the body shell. Leave the easiest access bolts in place. With help to keep the axle on the jack, remove the last two bolts and lower the axle down and away from the car.
Putting it back back under the car is more of the same. Jack it up until the easy access bolt on one side is aligned. Fit the bolt loosely. Align the other side with a podger or suitable screwdriver and fit the bolt. The others fit and tighten in the normal way.
On the 100HP I replaced the metal brake lines and rubber hoses with a single 600mm long HEL braided hose. The drum brake could be done the same way at but more cost than OEM rubber hoses. You would need to decide what is best banjo bolt or pivoting male end into the brake cylinder.
Use the 500 rear springs with rubber buffers at top and bottom. This protects the spring pans from metal to metal and restores the ride height.
Fit the dampers with top bolt first taking care to not cross the threads. They are VERY easy to cross thread - be careful.
The 500 axle swap works fine if you get the whole thing -
# Axle complete with pivot posts.
# Hubs
# Brakes - complete
# Springs with top rubbers (169 springs are too hard)
# Dampers if they are good condition.
The rubber brake hoses at the axle pivot will have to be cut otherwise you risk twisting the aluminium brake pipes. The fragment can then be spun off the flare nut. Heating the flare nuts with a gas lighter flame is enough to soften the plastic coating so you can turn the nut. Clean the coating and clean off the alloy corrosion underneath. Protect the bare metal with a high solids copper paste.
Disconnect hand brake cables and ABS wires remove dampers from the car.
Use a trolley jack under the centre of the axle beam. Measure and pen mark it. DO NOT use the mid point "nib" its not in the middle.
The axle pivot bolts are difficult to access and will not allow the axle to come out easily. Leave these in place as a complete assembly.
Loosen all six large bolts holding the axle pivot brackets to the body shell. Leave the easiest access bolts in place. With help to keep the axle on the jack, remove the last two bolts and lower the axle down and away from the car.
Putting it back back under the car is more of the same. Jack it up until the easy access bolt on one side is aligned. Fit the bolt loosely. Align the other side with a podger or suitable screwdriver and fit the bolt. The others fit and tighten in the normal way.
On the 100HP I replaced the metal brake lines and rubber hoses with a single 600mm long HEL braided hose. The drum brake could be done the same way at but more cost than OEM rubber hoses. You would need to decide what is best banjo bolt or pivoting male end into the brake cylinder.
Use the 500 rear springs with rubber buffers at top and bottom. This protects the spring pans from metal to metal and restores the ride height.
Fit the dampers with top bolt first taking care to not cross the threads. They are VERY easy to cross thread - be careful.
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