Technical Panda 1.2 (2012) Clutch Replacement

[Borntown]

Hi folks,
Newbie here.
Have owned a Panda 1.2 (2012) for 4 years and it's been great (except for the plastic coolant spigot on the engine block breaking) until this week.
The missus was in traffic a couple of days ago and at a gear change she couldn't take it out of 1st gear. Chugged the car to a safe location and switched the engine off and tried to change gear. No go Gear-shift would not change. Pedal was going right down to the floor, but no release. Gear still stuck in 1st.

Recovered the car to our local high street fitting garage and they took one look at it and said "Clutch!". Now I've been in the trade years ago and this sounded unusual as I would have gone more for gear Selector or gear stick linkage issues. At worst, a jammed release bearing.
But no, they triumphantly said it must be the clutch and proceeded to replace it with a new clutch kit (clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing) at £420.-
I asked to see the old parts and to be honest nothing seemed amiss. The guy that did the work also said he couldn't see anything wrong except the pressure plate facing seemed "thinner" than the new one.
I personally think they're barking up the wrong tree, especially when they hat to add 2 litres of gearbox oil. Makes me wonder if it could be a hydraulics issue or simple overheating.
Any advice??

Thanks
Borntown

 

[varesecrazy]

If its driving again.. they obviously 'fixed' something..

Did they spill lots of oil getting the clutch swapped..?

 

[Borntown]

Ah, good point. I just didn't see how they could loose oil from a sealed box.

 

[varesecrazy]

Ah, good point. I just didn't see how they could loose oil from a sealed box.

Driveshafts probably leave gaping holes..

TBH:

IF it had dripped 2 litres away .. you would have become aware..

Charlie

 

[DaveMcT]

The gearbox has to be drained to change the clutch.

If it's right hand drive, the clutch is hydraulically operated. Over time, the master cylinder wears and the clutch fails to release. Seals are not available so the whole system has to be replaced. Parts cost about £110 plus fitting. Do not bother trying to save the slave cylinder (its the cheaper part anyway). Just swap the lot and be done with it.

It's possible the old clutch would have worked with new hydraulics but generally they are not far behind.

My car had new hydraulics but clutch engagement lagged behind the pedal action. New clutch and all was well.

 

[MrMagoo]

I waa going to say the slave or master cylinder was knackered and that would explain why the pedal was going to the floor but that does not explain why it was stuck in first gear - were you able to change gears with the engine off?

 

[koalar]

two 1L bottles of gear oil is about correct

has to be drained before you pop the driveshafts out.

if the clutch was working. In it would engage and disengage but the gear lever stuck in first. Same engine on or off. I gave been there. Mine was the selector cable. But no doubt there could be other causes

 

[DaveMcT]

If the car stalls in gear it's entirely possible to have lever jammed in gear. The gear lever will be very hard to move until load is taken off the gears.


I suspect the clutch was heading for end of life and getting heavy to operate. It happens gradually so people don't notice the issue. Eventually the hydraulics failed leaving the car stalled in gear.

 

[koalar]

If the car stalls in gear it's entirely possible to have lever jammed in gear. The gear lever will be very hard to move until load is taken off the gears.


I suspect the clutch was heading for end of life and getting heavy to operate. It happens gradually so people don't notice the issue. Eventually the hydraulics failed leaving the car stalled in gear.

OP states its the same with the engine off

 

[DaveMcT]

OP states its the same with the engine off

When the car is stalled in gear with broken clutch hydraulics, the gear teeth will be loaded enough to prevent the driver pulling it out of gear. Normally pressing the clutch pedal releases the load and the gears move. But the driver had no hydraulics so gear lever was "jammed" until car was moved.

 

[Borntown]

Thanks everybody for their replies. Very helpful.
Just want to update you on the events since I wrote in.
The Panda has been behaving well although I think pedal is stiffer than previously. Also after long drive in this hot weather and heavy stop-start traffic (where the hell is everyone going, fer chrissakes??) I can smell what I think is burnt brake pads or clutch plate material. Not overpowering, but there.
Anyway, paid with my credit card so if any comebacks I have that bit of cover even though it might end up as being small consolation.

Once again, many thanks.
Borntown.

 

[Borntown]

I waa going to say the slave or master cylinder was knackered and that would explain why the pedal was going to the floor but that does not explain why it was stuck in first gear - were you able to change gears with the engine off?

no, everything seemed seized up.

 

[Borntown]

If the car stalls in gear it's entirely possible to have lever jammed in gear. The gear lever will be very hard to move until load is taken off the gears.


I suspect the clutch was heading for end of life and getting heavy to operate. It happens gradually so people don't notice the issue. Eventually the hydraulics failed leaving the car stalled in gear.

Like I said, both the clutch plate and the pressure plate seemed to have loads of life left in them. Only think I forgot to check was the release bearing.
The last time I experienced a jammed clutch/gear was many many years ago with my Dad's aged Ford Cortina. It transpired that the release bearing was chucked off the shaft coming off the gearbox jammed the pressure plate open.

 

[DaveMcT]

no, everything seemed seized up.

Put any car in gear on a slight slope and let off the hand brake see if you can move the gear lever without brutalising it. You simply can't, because the gearbox is loaded into gear. Put the hand brake on again. It makes no difference as the box is still loaded in gear.

I think your original problem was the hydraulics - pedal went to the floor is the clue. On cable clutches, it's a broken clutch cable. But as said, the clutch is never far behind the hydraulics so you wont have missed many miles of use on the old clutch.

 

[Borntown]

Put any car in gear on a slight slope and let off the hand brake see if you can move the gear lever without brutalising it. You simply can't, because the gearbox is loaded into gear. Put the hand brake on again. It makes no difference as the box is still loaded in gear.

I think your original problem was the hydraulics - pedal went to the floor is the clue. On cable clutches, it's a broken clutch cable. But as said, the clutch is never far behind the hydraulics so you wont have missed many miles of use on the old clutch.

What I don't understand is how this happened after a mere 48,000 miles of use.
Is that normal for Pandas?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What I don't understand is how this happened after a mere 48,000 miles of use.
Is that normal for Pandas?

Probably just bad luck? Hydraulics can fail at almost any time and we know ours are on the weak side!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Probably just bad luck? Hydraulics can fail at almost any time and we know ours are on the weak side!

If it's any consolation I got it completely wrong (as did our local small fiat independent garage) when my older boy's Punto clutch started acting up. I did a post on it at the time so I won't go into detail but we managed to convince ourselves that the clutch master cylinder was at fault. It's a real b****r to change but we did, only to find very little improvement. Much thought followed and eventually we decided to put a complete 3 piece Valeo clutch kit into it. It was very disappointing, with everything in pieces on the floor, to see the clutch, although worn, was not completely worn out. So we weren't surprised to find little improvement in the pedal when it all went back together!

I began to suspect the release arm and yolk but the chap in the garage who did the hard work for me said he hadn't noticed anything worn enough to warrant renewing it. The only thing left to change was the slave cylinder and after fitting and bleeding through the pedal was much better but still going down a fair bit before freeing the plate. After a second bleed through the next day, it got nice and hard and completely sorted the problem. The strange thing about it is that there was no particular sign of fluid leaking and externally it looked fine.

All my life I've been aware that it's very often hydraulics at fault with both brakes and clutches when you have a problem. Why did I allow my reasoning to be distracted on this one?

 

[koalar]

If the car stalls in gear it's entirely possible to have lever jammed in gear. The gear lever will be very hard to move until load is taken off the gears.


I suspect the clutch was heading for end of life and getting heavy to operate. It happens gradually so people don't notice the issue. Eventually the hydraulics failed leaving the car stalled in gear.

Having driven several car without a working clutch. I doubt it would be possible to jam it in gear. Although I could be slightly harder to release.


And having a panda with a corroded selector cable


I know where my money would be.

 

[DaveMcT]

Having driven several car without a working clutch. I doubt it would be possible to jam it in gear. Although I could be slightly harder to release.

Tell that to my wife when her Renault clutch hydraulics failed. She was on a gentle hill pulling away when it failed. She could not move the gear lever. The AA, man immediately diagnosed the problem (pedal on the floor). He connected his tow hitch and eased the car forwards before trying to get the box out of gear.

 

[koalar]

Tell that to my wife when her Renault clutch hydraulics failed. She was on a gentle hill pulling away when it failed. She could not move the gear lever. The AA, man immediately diagnosed the problem (pedal on the floor). He connected his tow hitch and eased the car forwards before trying to get the box out of gear.

The story keeps changing. Where in the OP did a hill come into it.

Just been out to my car and tested.

I have a ramp up to the garage. At the top of the ramp I let it roll backwards and drop the clutch in first. As suspect it comes out of gear with slightly more force than normal.


On the flat part of drive if I drive in second and apply the foot brake until it stalls, it comes out of gear as normal. Although slightly scary as my drive ain't that long.

I drove a Suzuki splash from Kings Lynn to the centre Norwich with a clutch that wouldn't disengage

and a Datsun 120J from Macclesfield to Crewe with a snapped clutch peddle

and moved a Nissan Qashqai a few hundred yards of a dual carriage way for the owner who had broken down with a clutch to the floor problem


but all this is irrelevant. When the OP asked to see the old parts he was told that they were the same as he new except the plate slightly thinner i don't see anything here that would warrants a £420 clutch change?