Technical Panda 1.0 3cylinder engine design details

[Outlier]

Just wondering if anyone knows where I can find nerdy info on the new panda 3 cylinder engine? What advantages does it have and how does it achieve that? Is the exhaust manifold integrated into the cylinder block? Open deck or closed deck? Cast iron of Aluminium alloy? On paper it doesn't look much better than previous incarnations (I would say looks worse) and it is in a heavier car (compared to mk3 1.2 and mk2 1.2, the 500 MHEV also looks heavier than the 1.2). I thought the idea was to make a lighter engine. I am guessing engine development is a costly business but I struggle to see any advantage (unless the brief was to reduce the torque and increase the weight:bang.

1.1 8V 88 Nm @ 2750rpm (Euro 4)
1.2 8V 102 Nm @ 2500rpm (Euro 4)
1.2 8V 102 Nm @ 3000rpm (Euro 5)
1.0 92 Nm @ 3500rpm (Euro 6d)

 

[chris3234]

Fairly sure they are aluminium alloy engine's

Main benefit is probably better efficiency due to lower internal friction due to 3 Vs 4 cylinders and the use of multi-air technology to again improve efficiency and probably a better torque curve allthrough obviously not better overal torque



Edit found this


Compared to the outgoing 1.2-liter 69hp gasoline engine, the mild hybrid version improves fuel efficiency, reducing CO2 emissions on the road by up to 30% without impeding performance. It also ensures a very high standard of driving comfort thanks to the BSG system, allowing for a quiet, vibration-free restart of the internal combustion engine in Stop&Start mode.

The new 1.0-liter, 3-cylinder engine has a peak power output of 70hp (51kW) at 6,000rpm and peak torque of 92N·m at 3,500rpm. The cylinder head has two valves per cylinder and a single camshaft with continuous variable valve timing (the timing is chain-driven).

The structure includes a compact combustion chamber, high-tumble intake ducts and external Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR), providing a remarkably high compression ratio (12:1), which translates into better thermal efficiency.

The crankcase, developed in collaboration with Teksid, is made of high-pressure die-cast aluminium alloy with cast-iron cylinder liners, to reduce start-up times and contain the weight of the engine to just 77kg. Additionally, friction is reduced using a crank mechanism with a bore/stroke ratio of 1.24 and a connecting rod/crank device with a 10mm offset to maximize efficiency.



Edit 2 this website seem to have a good bit of info on the firefly series engines

https://motorchase.com/en/2016/09/fiat-presents-the-new-firefly-gse-engines-in-brazil/

 

[varesecrazy]

Surely the CAR is heavier because its a HYBRID..

The Firefly motors were developed in Brasil by FPT termed SGE -small gasoline engine

the hybrid tech is just a modern ECO marketing thing ( city cars need low emission options)

Apparently the fuel only 4 cyl is a VERY good motor

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Surely the CAR is heavier because its a HYBRID...

Only in the very loosest sense is it a hybrid. The so-called 'mild hybrids' popping up all over the place are a con! All they have is a minuscule amount of electric propulsion available, using energy from the alternator on the overrun or during braking to give a tiny input back (using the alternator as a motor) to get the car rolling again after a stop. It is a very long way indeed from the notion of a electric car using a big battery to power a hefty electric motor. And so far as I understand it, there is only the small additional battery and a similar-sized but differently-configured alternator-come-starter motor, so really very little to alter the weight.

Unless I have misunderstood all this 'mild hybrid' stuff...

This from the Fiat Press Release:
"The new Mild Hybrid engine
The Panda Hybrid is equipped with the new gasoline Mild Hybrid engine, pairing the new 70 hp (51.5 kW) 3-cylinder 1-liter engine from the FireFly family with a BSG (Belt-integrated Starter Generator) electric motor. The latter recovers energy during braking and deceleration, stores it in a lithium battery with a capacity of 11 Ah [not much more than a MacBook Pro laptop battery*] , and uses it, at a peak output of 3.6 kW [that's about 4.8 BHP and not much more than a standard starter on a big diesel**], to restart the engine in Stop&Start mode and to assist acceleration."

[source: https://www.fiat.com/news/panda-hybrid-mild-hybrid -- comments in italics inside square brackets added by me ]

* battery in MacBook Pro 7300 mAh (that's 7.3 Ah)
** power in a Toyota Landcruiser starter about 2.5kW

 

[varesecrazy]

Indeed

A bigger Generator and Additional electrical storage.. sounds like more weight

The op's question was aimed at the engine

Wikipedia will cover most of that

 

[Marcus Daly]

I would invite anyone to drive a real (ie Toyota/Lexus) hybrid to understand what one can offer in terms of economy and refinement. I drove four over 12 years as company cars and loved them. My last (fourth generation) Prius was a joy to drive, delivered >80mpg with no difficulty and without sacrificing performance. Having had a new 500 on long term loan, I can tell you Fiat’s “mild hybrid” effort is absolutely rotten in comparison. As others have observed, like the Twin Air, it’s just Fiat’s latest wheeze to game EU emissions regs, nothing more.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Indeed

A bigger Generator and Additional electrical storage.. sounds like more weight

The op's question was aimed at the engine

Wikipedia will cover most of that

I think the mistake the OP makes is to assume there is an advantage. Obviously when it comes to things like this it’s not stuffed with clever technology to make a ‘better’ engine, it’s all about making the tiny engine as fuel efficient as possible even if it’s at the expense of power and torque.

I think as Fiat’s feet are well in the small car section of the market, it is very difficult for them to make such small engines efficient, indeed the smaller the engine the harder it is to make fuel or emissions savings.

The twin air was supposed to be the ultimate answer they thought they had really cracked it with the twin air, till the real world test results came out and then they adopted real world testing to decide on efficiency ratings.

It remains to be seen if the 3 cylinder engine is any better in the long term, or have they just shifted my goal posts again.

 

[varesecrazy]

From memory..
When I did a little research of the FIAT Brasil development

Within the 'family' under development was a motor termed 'tigershark'

As you might imagine TIGERSHARK is not in the same league as FIREFLY

I assume this is what is in the non-euro 500x

 

[Outlier]

I would invite anyone to drive a real (ie Toyota/Lexus) hybrid to understand what one can offer in terms of economy and refinement. ..

Calling it a "hybrid" is reminds me of the phone company explaining to me that "mobile broadband" was not necessarily "broadband". Still, the concept of a mild hybrid does make sense on paper: the goal is to get 80% of the advantage of a full hybrid for 20% of the cost. I always thought even a mild hybrid system would be 48V, but I could be wrong on that. If so, this is the mildest of mildest hybrids (like a triple A battery).

I'd have thought that the benefit should show in the WLTP. What I don't like is if this is another case of a benefit mostly on paper not delivered in reality, then we are paying a lot for fancy technology that does not deliver on economy or performance. There isn't even a lower VED tax rate. Just an engine that is potentially less reliable as it is new design.

Might have been better for FCA to just take the PSA 1.2 or the Renault engine (well if Dacia can use it, why not Fiat?)

 

[Outlier]

Indeed

A bigger Generator and Additional electrical storage.. sounds like more weight

The op's question was aimed at the engine

Wikipedia will cover most of that

Wikipedia has few technical details of this engine, not a torque curve in sight. I got the information from the link on this thread (thanks to Chris3234 for that).

I had my hopes up as it is 2 valves per cylinder only to be dashed when I saw the torque curve. It is even worse than I thought: not at all linear and the peak is actually a lump, below that looks like a void. And when I say "peak" it is not exactly Everest to begin with. If anything it needs a bigger battery to fill that void. Maybe WLTP rarely goes north of 3500rpm and so it looks good on paper. I am pretty sure that the PSA 1.2 is not like that or the suzuki 1.0 boosterjet.

It looks like the 1.0 is the poor relation, the other variants do not look so bad.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

You have to consider with all new engine development it’s designed and focused to look good on the tests like WLTP the idea is to have bragging rights about the efficiency. It’s not actually possible to make a car that works brilliantly all round so they focus the engineering on the tests that people use to rate or rank the car. The “mild” hybrid is probably tuned only to fulfil some very specific points on the test to keep the car looking as efficient as possible. The twinair equally was designed to look good on the old system of efficiency testing 10-odd years ago but could not be tweaked to fit the newer tests and for that reason fiat dropped it from the lineup.

So what you have to consider is that these engines are not designed and built for consumers they are built for tests. Which is why many people see better results with a remap after they buy a car because the remap better suits real world use.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

...Might have been better for FCA to just take the PSA 1.2 or the Renault engine (well if Dacia can use it, why not Fiat?)

Dacia use Renault engines because they are Renaults in all but name... (They started by making Renaults under licence, and were bought entirely by Renault in 1999). not sure that's a reason for Fiat to use that engine?

 

[Outlier]

You have to consider with all new engine development it’s designed and focused to look good on the tests like WLTP the idea is to have bragging rights about the efficiency. .

I agree but wasn't WLTP supposed to be the solution to that problem? It is forgotten that the VW emissions scandal was not just about VW cheating, it was regulations that were really not fit for purpose. Just a number for CO2 on a spreadsheet that had to reduce for each new generation as per diktat.

We need a more holistic approach to regulations, at the moment it is all about CO2. Reminds me of Grenfell Tower which had cladding installed to reduce CO2 and the cladding apparently met the regulations at the time. Still, it should be feasible to make such regulations smarter and more effective.

I don't care about CO2, but even if I did I would think that what is happening is mostly a con. Solar panels have to have 20 year warranty to ensure environmental pay back, but that is not a consideration for cars as reliability is not part of the regulations. How "sustainable" is the ever more complex technology in cars?

 

[chris3234]

I agree but wasn't WLTP supposed to be the solution to that problem? It is forgotten that the VW emissions scandal was not just about VW cheating, it was regulations that were really not fit for purpose. Just a number for CO2 on a spreadsheet that had to reduce for each new generation as per diktat.

We need a more holistic approach to regulations, at the moment it is all about CO2. Reminds me of Grenfell Tower which had cladding installed to reduce CO2 and the cladding apparently met the regulations at the time. Still, it should be feasible to make such regulations smarter and more effective.

I don't care about CO2, but even if I did I would think that what is happening is mostly a con. Solar panels have to have 20 year warranty to ensure environmental pay back, but that is not a consideration for cars as reliability is not part of the regulations. How "sustainable" is the ever more complex technology in cars?

If didnt according to leaked email's from those high up in the company they tried to bury the fire testing reports

 

[Marcus Daly]

These engines are not designed and built for consumers they are built for tests.

Bottom line and end of story.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

It is forgotten that the VW emissions scandal was not just about VW cheating, it was regulations that were really not fit for purpose. Just a number for CO2 on a spreadsheet that had to reduce for each new generation as per diktat.

The Vw scandal wasn’t about CO2 it was all about NOX emissions on euro v engines. The engines could not meet (at the time) NOX requirements so they cheated. To run a different program when the car worked out it was being tested and still have a usable engine map for every day use.

Later euro 6 engines no longer have this problem and where problems might exist they introduced adblue

Fiat’s problems all stem from small petrol engines with very high CO2 figures. If you want people to buy a small car on the economy then the CO2 figure also needs to be low and low CO2 is important to people who might be buying a car for its green credentials

 

[chris3234]

The Vw scandal wasn’t about CO2 it was all about NOX emissions on euro v engines. The engines could not meet (at the time) NOX requirements so they cheated. To run a different program when the car worked out it was being tested and still have a usable engine map for every day use.

Later euro 6 engines no longer have this problem and where problems might exist they introduced adblue

Fiat’s problems all stem from small petrol engines with very high CO2 figures. If you want people to buy a small car on the economy then the CO2 figure also needs to be low and low CO2 is important to people who might be buying a car for its green credentials

Doesn't help Fiat's casewhen the because they make mainly small cars they have to hit lower targets for co2 production then manufacturers like VW who produced a lot of larger sub type vechiles




Personally I think that a stupid system but that's how it goes

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Doesn't help Fiat's casewhen the because they make mainly small cars they have to hit lower targets for co2 production then manufacturers like VW who produced a lot of larger sub type vechiles




Personally I think that a stupid system but that's how it goes

Fiat don’t “have” to meet lower standards than anyone else.

If you make a big engine that makes 230g/km of co2 then people won’t be surprised at the high co2 levels if it’s some 5.5 litre 550hp v8 (Mercedes AMG E63)

Then you come down to a more mundane family car like a diesel vw golf that produces 122g/km co2 from a 1.5 litre engine and 130hp

But then you get to some thing like a 0.9L twin air that’s managing 108g/km for its 85hp that doesn’t seem so good.

The emissions standards for a big car engine or a little car engine are all the same, the problem comes from the cost for VED that gets charged for higher polluting vehicles and the perception of the public, in this sort of comparison the twinair is highly polluting compared to much bigger engines based on the emissions versus displacement, power and the size of the car.

So if someone is looking to reduce their carbon foot print they might be tempted to go for a small engine car like a small fiat, but if they look at the figures they might not be so willing to give up the size and practicality of a bigger car for very little gain, ok a golf might make a little more CO2 but it’s got more power, more doors and more boot space.

And for all the tiny cars FCA make they make many many highly polluting cars and stick Jeep badges on them.

 

[chris3234]

Fiat don’t “have” to meet lower standards than anyone else.

If you make a big engine that makes 230g/km of co2 then people won’t be surprised at the high co2 levels if it’s some 5.5 litre 550hp v8 (Mercedes AMG E63)

Then you come down to a more mundane family car like a diesel vw golf that produces 122g/km co2 from a 1.5 litre engine and 130hp

But then you get to some thing like a 0.9L twin air that’s managing 108g/km for its 85hp that doesn’t seem so good.

The emissions standards for a big car engine or a little car engine are all the same, the problem comes from the cost for VED that gets charged for higher polluting vehicles and the perception of the public, in this sort of comparison the twinair is highly polluting compared to much bigger engines based on the emissions versus displacement, power and the size of the car.

So if someone is looking to reduce their carbon foot print they might be tempted to go for a small engine car like a small fiat, but if they look at the figures they might not be so willing to give up the size and practicality of a bigger car for very little gain, ok a golf might make a little more CO2 but it’s got more power, more doors and more boot space.

And for all the tiny cars FCA make they make many many highly polluting cars and stick Jeep badges on them.

The average of a fleet co2 is not fixed manufacturers with a higher avarage weight can have a higher avarage co2 for the fleet




That being said fiat have clung on the there old engine's for far too long the fire engine's should have been killed off years ago

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The average of a fleet co2 is not fixed manufacturers with a higher avarage weight can have a higher avarage co2 for the fleet




That being said fiat have clung on the there old engine's for far too long the fire engine's should have been killed off years ago

I’m not sure that’s right right, believe the average for all cars made by A manufacturer needs to be something like 95g/Km which is pretty hard to meet if you don’t make any electric or hybrid cars. Therefore fiat has been signing multi billion dollar deals with people like Tesla who have a 0g/km level of co2 so can sell some of there allowance off to other companies like fiat.

Fiat make small cars but with alfa, Maserati, Jeep, Chrysler etc, as a company that makes cars they probably make many more high polluting cars than they do small little green cars. So are they expecting Fiat to prop up the rest of the company? Obviously they are finally introducing electric and hybrid models which might help but right now it’s not going to massively improve CO2 Averages ?

Now they’ve merged it’s even more complicated taking all the French models into account.

Ido agree the fire engine should have been killed off long ago, but like everything with fiat they just keep flogging the horse until it’s completely dead by which time they’ve damaged their own reputation