Mike1alike
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Do you still have the recipe for it?
Technical Need Urgent Help - Car Not Starting
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Technical Need Urgent Help - Car Not Starting
Quickest way to test if fuel pump is working is to disconnect the quick connection and turn the ignition on
I find petrol to be blue green, as here
Although it's actually clear and dye is added so can technically be any colour
a fowled MAP sensor would cause poor acceleration original symptom and difficulty starting
Does your car have two coils on the right side of the engine, or one larger coil under the airbox
Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)
Got the car here for a few day 1.2 petrol 2011 Going to post a few pictures and video of some simple and basic tests My well be a bit random as they pop into my head and might sort them into the proper order later
www.fiatforum.com
Sorry I missed the bump start. I am not keen to do this as there is not a lot of space where the car is left.
Ya, I expected as much. The "Random Thoughts" sections are great, thanks.These engines will start on and run nicely on 3 cylinders
They run badly on two
Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)
You can tell if the coil pack is getting a control signal and giving a good spark like this If one is weeker and the spark does not jump as far than the others it's suspect It is possible to get a jolt if you do something wrong, probably not a good idea if you have a pace maker As long as the...
Thanks Koalar. To be clear. The test you are talking about is to:
1) Disconnect the fuel line quick connect - is this the one at the head of the arrow in the image below?
2) Stick the line in a large vessel
3) Turn the key from off to ignition (but not cranking the engine)?
If so how long would you leave it on ignition - just for a brief moment?
How awkward is that connection - is quick connection accurate?
Ya, two coils on the side together. The image below is my car.
I have a spare map sensor I could try. The data below is not great but the MAP data is in roughly the right place. I will try and get a better grab of this data under cranking. Any other data I could get that might help?
I thought you meant the car
I have the receipt as I bought it new from Fiat 16 odd year ago.
Then I realised it was more sensible that you meant the fuel. No, I did not get a receipt for the fuel. I paid at the machine. It was at Tesco and I used my Clubcard - will check if it says anything but doubt it.
Yes
Yes about 1 second
Push the pipes together ( not necessarily but I find it easier to push the button in if I do this first)
Push the two buttons on the side in
Pull the pipes apart
A few seconds if your fingers are strong enough
Great it's not a faulty coil it will run on one, badly but it will start
I looked into this and I can get it retrospectively. Tesco hold it for 30day and I paid by card so they can check this for me. I will look into it, as why not.
Thanks for the details.
I accept your challenge!
It's a shame I still not got a panda
I have never taken a inlet pressure reading while just cranking
Here's mine on start up
You can see it dips down a bit cranking, as I would expect, the throttle shut (small opening) and the cylinder are still pumping air out
Where as yours is flat lined
But it does depend on scale and sample rate
They can flood if you crank them too long
If you floor the throttle it should stop the injectors and a couple of seconds will clear the cylinders, I say should as I don't know if it works on every model,but it worked on mine
I have never taken a inlet pressure reading while just cranking
Here's mine on start up
You can see it dips down a bit cranking, as I would expect, the throttle shut (small opening) and the cylinder are still pumping air out
Where as yours is flat lined
But it does depend on scale and sample rate
They can flood if you crank them too long
If you floor the throttle it should stop the injectors and a couple of seconds will clear the cylinders, I say should as I don't know if it works on every model,but it worked on mine
Hey the car is working again and back home. I looked at diagnostics for the MAP again and realised it was way off. I recorded some data, replaced it and it fired up first time.
You called it @koalar !
This is just a quick message to give you an update. I will return tonight and provide a full report. Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!
You called it @koalar !
This is just a quick message to give you an update. I will return tonight and provide a full report. Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!
Well that's a first
And the first i have seen where the MAP actually stops the engine from firing altogether
Normally they just have a long crank time before starting maybe 2 seconds
Have to store that one for latter
The video was really helpful as it eliminated quite a lot, straight off
And
Poor acceleration in the first post, that small bit of information, although seemingly insignificant,.did save a lot of time.and messing about,. especially when backed up by the posted live data
Is the MAP sensor tip covered in oil
The original Bosch sensors rarely fail and normally just get covered in oil, especially the cars with the flyby wire throttle where the MAP sits in a long tube that can fill up with oil, normally you can clean them and reuse them, then sort out why they are getting fowled in oil
A few years ago there was a big stushie when the local supermarket had a load of diesel stashed in his petrol storage tank. There were quite a number of cars disabled in the surrounding streets unable to run and the fuel station was closed for days while the tank was emptied, cleaned and recommissioned.
WHAT MY PLANS WERE:
This is the full list of checks that I set out with this morning. I provide this for completeness. They are largely focussed on diagnostics to locate the fault to the ignition, fuel or other system. I made it as far and step #2 and found the issue with the map sensor, I discontinued my investigation at this point.
THIS IS WHAT I DID:
1) General Checks:
2) Check MAP Sensor with New Key:
Note: Telemetry was recorded using a Veepeak Mini Bluetooth OBD II Scanner connected to the Torque app on my Android phone.
IMAGE: shows cranking with the bad MAP sensor and the engine failing to start:
IMAGE: I left the app recording MAP data with the ignition on (but engine off and not cranking) in a short time the signal started to vary widely - remember the engine is off this should be a flat line near ambient pressure ~100 kPa.
3) Swap MAP sensor – as it is so quick and easy:
IMAGE: Shows the MAP data more clearly with the new sensor installed - the engine started:
IMAGE: Shows the engine RPM data more clearly with the new sensor installed - the engine started:
IMAGE: The old / faulty sensor was a bit oily but not in a stand out way.
IMAGE: The spare sensor I had and installed - a bit dusty so I cleaned it up first.
IMAGE: I think it was the original Bosch one I had previously taken out of the car (around 2 years ago).
This is the full list of checks that I set out with this morning. I provide this for completeness. They are largely focussed on diagnostics to locate the fault to the ignition, fuel or other system. I made it as far and step #2 and found the issue with the map sensor, I discontinued my investigation at this point.
- General Checks:
- Smell for fuel at petrol cap
- Check fuel type via retrospective receipt with Tesco
- Listen for fuel pump priming at petrol cap
- Check MAP Sensor with New Key:
- Crank the engine with the spare key
- Record the MAP and RPM readings together (OBD scanner)
- Check for drop in MAP reading with increase in RPM on cranking
- Capture data and check units
- Swap MAP sensor – as it is so quick and easy:
- Repeat tests of #2 above with new sensor
- Remove Air Inlet Assembly and Inspect:
- Check wiring
- Check connectors
- Check pipework and look for leaks
- Undertake Basic Fuel Rail Pressure Test:
- Locate Schrader valve on Fuel Line
- Remove dust cap
- Turn on ignition (do not start engine)
- Wait a few seconds for fuel pump to pressurise/prime
- Press needle of valve and check that fuel emerges:
- Use rags to contain any spillage
- Just checks some pressure present
- Basic Ignition Test:
- Pull a HT lead
- Connect spare spark plug to the lead
- Ground body/thread of the plug to the engine block
- Crank the engine and check that a spark is observed
- Repeat for other HT leads
THIS IS WHAT I DID:
1) General Checks:
- Smell for fuel at petrol cap
- Check fuel type via retrospective receipt with Tesco
- Listen for fuel pump priming at petrol cap
2) Check MAP Sensor with New Key:
- Crank the engine with the spare key
- Record the MAP and RPM readings together (OBD scanner)
- Check for drop in MAP reading with increase in RPM on cranking
- Capture data and check units
Note: Telemetry was recorded using a Veepeak Mini Bluetooth OBD II Scanner connected to the Torque app on my Android phone.
IMAGE: shows cranking with the bad MAP sensor and the engine failing to start:
IMAGE: I left the app recording MAP data with the ignition on (but engine off and not cranking) in a short time the signal started to vary widely - remember the engine is off this should be a flat line near ambient pressure ~100 kPa.
3) Swap MAP sensor – as it is so quick and easy:
- Swap the MAP sensor for a spare I had
- Repeat tests of #2 above with new sensor
IMAGE: Shows the MAP data more clearly with the new sensor installed - the engine started:
IMAGE: Shows the engine RPM data more clearly with the new sensor installed - the engine started:
IMAGE: The old / faulty sensor was a bit oily but not in a stand out way.
IMAGE: The spare sensor I had and installed - a bit dusty so I cleaned it up first.
IMAGE: I think it was the original Bosch one I had previously taken out of the car (around 2 years ago).
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So that is the final update. Thanks for the support. If anything changes I will update but all seems pretty good to me.
Sensor, intake manifold pressure (link to Amazon)
I bought and installed it two years ago.
Thanks all!
The sensor did not seem overly cruddy to me so I think my investigation stops here.
Ya, in fairness Tesco Helpline rang the petrol station directly to check if they were aware of any issues on their end - came back clean.
Please be gentle when I say that I was looking at the price more than anything else - it was a Herth+Buss:
Sensor, intake manifold pressure (link to Amazon)
I bought and installed it two years ago.
Thanks all!
Yep MAP looks fine
It just reporting your car is flying at twice the height of Everest
I new the panda was good but not that good
Normally a reliable brand
pmmonline.co.uk
It just reporting your car is flying at twice the height of Everest
I new the panda was good but not that good
Normally a reliable brand
Commitment to Quality – Herth+Buss
PMM puts the questions to Herth+Buss – a German company with a strong proposition for the UK aftermarket.
pmmonline.co.uk
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