Technical Need Urgent Help - Car Not Starting

[DTanner]

Ok, so the car broke down and I need some help. I label it as urgent as I have pushed it to a safe place but could do with getting it back in action and home.

INTRO:
The car is a 2009 Fiat Panda Dynamic Eco 1.2L Petrol, with 146k miles
The car has been fine for some time then this morning we got up early for a family appointment and the car felt off. It felt hesitant and at times close to stall. If I wanted to speed up, I would push the accelerator and the car would hesitate – I would back off the accelerator and build up speed more gradually. I nearly got home when the engine stalled while I was driving. After this I could not restart. Now the car cranks but there is no ignition so I cannot start the engine.

Here is a video of me trying to start the car:

Crank Telemetry

Sorry, not sure if there is much to see here. The engine cranks, voltage dropped to 9.5ish V.

WHAT HAVE I DONE SO FAR:
So, I don’t really know what to do so I did the following (after walking home, packing a back with some stuff and cycling back):

1) Read Error Codes: There were none
There were no error codes – I was not expecting this.

2) Test the Battery: Seemed ok to me
I appreciate this is a contentious area but the battery did not appear to be obviously broken.
Battery Voltage (ignition off): 12.22V. I let car rest, ran headlights for 30s and measured battery voltage. I did not disconnect the terminals.
Battery Voltage (cranking): 9.64V. Measured across the terminals as the car cranked and let it stabilise a bit.

3) Checked the Throttle Position Sensor: Seemed ok to me
I connected to the OBD and watched the signal as I moved the throttle through its range of motion. The signal appeared smooth and as expected – though this was with the engine off. I checked as I was seeing hesitation when pressing the accelerator.

TPS Signal

4) Checked the Crank TDC Sensor: Seemed ok to me
I had a spare sensor so swapped it in. The car still did not start and there was no notable change in symptoms.

5) Checked the Engine Earthing: Seemed fine to me
I tried battery negative terminal to different parts of the engine and earthing points. Pathways all looked suitably low resistance. I put a secondary earth strap some time ago and all looked fine.

6) Checked the Fuel Cut Off Switch: Seemed fine to me
I found the switch under the passenger seat and pushed it a few times. Nothing changed.

Fuel Cut-off Switch Location

I think this is the switch, under the passenger seat, the black rubber inside the protective white metal ring

7) Checked Sound of Fuel Pump Priming: Seemed fine to me
When I turned on the ignition (but not started the engine) I can hear the hum at the back seat as the fuel pump primes


QUESTIONS:
1) Are the dashboard lights correct?

Dashboard Lights

I cannot remember if they should turn off or not. This is ignition on only (not cranking or starting engine) after waiting for other lights to turn off. The lights that remained on are:
Handbrake (the handbrake was on so this is expected), Engine Management Light, Battery Light, Oil Light

2) What should I do next? I need some basic guidance as I am at the limits of my knowledge.
I will look at checking for spark and for fuel getting to the cylinders, but I don't know how to do this off hand.

Thanks for any help!

EDIT: Corrected mileage type, added images for TPS and cranking telemetry from Torque.

 

[bugsymike]

Sounds like you have done most of the obvious issues and I can see the rev counter is trying so crank sensor seems good.
You can hear fuel pump .
On yours can you check if there is fuel at the fuel rail, sometimes they have what looks like a tyre valve which you can push to release a little fuel.
Can you remove a spark plug and reconnect coil lead to see if any spark?
Chipped key appears to be working, but do you have a spare to try?

 

[jackwhoo]

I'm with check for sparks

 

[Mike1alike]

Yeap, that one looks like either fuel is missing, or the spark is missing.
The lights does look alright, although I never seen the battery an oil lights flashing. I didn't have a no start either.
Although you can hear the fuel pump running, there can be problems on the fuel line. Best you could do is to read the fuel pressure if you can. Or you can take a spark plug out after crancking and see if there are traces of petrol on it.
With the spark, the spark plugs could be faulty or the coils, or the leads. You should test if there's any spark.

 

[koalar]

Are you sure the pumps priming for a couple of seconds as you turn the ignition on

I can here the blowers start

Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Got the car here for a few day 1.2 petrol 2011 Going to post a few pictures and video of some simple and basic tests My well be a bit random as they pop into my head and might sort them into the proper order later

www.fiatforum.com

Listen here if you have an assistant

I take it the battery and oil is staying on and it's just the camera making it flicker

 

[koalar]

There's quite a bit we know from the video

ECU is talking to the body computer
The body computer is talking to the dash
There petrol in the car
It's not the earth strap
The crank sensor is working
The battery is good
The cars got compression

 

[AnthonyH]

I think one of the spark plugs has failed, I'm assuming its a 1.2 Litre FIRE engine? Mine won't start with 1 plug failed. Its an easy fix if that is the case. It might bump start, in which case its easy to check for the failed spark plug.

 

[DTanner]

PLAN OF ACTION
Sorry for the detail but I have to cycle to the car and going over and back to my garage for parts and tools would be a misery.

1) Brief Background:
The car has had no recent issues has been starting great until it was not working. This was a relatively sudden issue where it degraded over a 20min drive and then broke down. I had a coil pack fail around 7 months ago. The diagnosis was pretty definitive (the fault code followed the coil pack when I swapped them over). I replaced both coil packs and it has been fine since. Given we are talking about ignition again I thought I would mention this – but it does not seem related to me but maybe you know better. That particular issue was covered in this thread: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/f...tion-coil-a-primary-secondary-circuit.515790/

General Inspection:

• I will try using a different key – simple to do so why now, but does not feel like a strong candidate for the issue
• Remove the throttle body and have a look around. Check for wiring, connectors, leaks, etc.

Ignition System:

• I have a spare spark plug so will do the following:
  • Pull a HT lead off its plug
  • Stick the spare plug on to it
  • Ground the plug thread to the engine block
  • Crank the engine
• If the spark is clear and visible then ignition is all good
• Repeat to ensure both coil packs are functional (will probably just check all spark plugs)
• If spark is missing, I will check what cylinders / coils are affected:
  • If need I have some options

    [*]I have a spare known good coil pack to try and a spare set of HT leads that are in good condition. I can try some swaps if I narrow down to a specific component issue.
    [*]For coil packs I can perform a basic resistance characterisation as detailed here – these are not infallible but a bad result will indicate a coil issue: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/f...primary-secondary-circuit.515790/post-4805284
    [*]

Fuel System:

• Test the pressure at the fuel rail:
  • Find the rail, locate the Schrader valve and remove the cover.
  • Turn the key to ignition (don’t start the engine)
  • Wait a few seconds for the priming to complete
  • Press valve to see if fuel emitted (blunt check to see if some pressure is present)
• Unfortunately I do not have a pressure gauge to connect to it. If I did I would do this:

  • Ideal Test – but do not have fuel pressure gauge:
  • Ensure the car ignition is off
  • Attach a gauge to the Schrader valve
  • Turn the key to ignition (don’t start the engine)
  • Measure the pressure on the dial (expect to see 50PSI or 3.5bar)
  • As I say the problem is that I do not have a fuel rail measuring gauge. I have a bike track pump that goes to 9bar. I assume using that would be a very bad idea.

  [*]

QUESTIONS:

1. Anything else I should try while I am at the car in the morning?
2. Any telemetry I should capture on the Torque app - like while cranking?
3. Can you confirm the fuel line Schrader valve is here? The dashed line indicating the fuel line and the circular bit being where the valve is hiding. Is this correct?

 

[Mike1alike]

n you confirm the fuel line Schrader valve is here? The dashed line indicating the fuel line and the circular bit being where the valve is hiding. Is this correct?

Yes, that's the one!

 

[DTanner]

Sounds like you have done most of the obvious issues and I can see the rev counter is trying so crank sensor seems good.
You can hear fuel pump .
On yours can you check if there is fuel at the fuel rail, sometimes they have what looks like a tyre valve which you can push to release a little fuel.
Can you remove a spark plug and reconnect coil lead to see if any spark?
Chipped key appears to be working, but do you have a spare to try?

Thanks, I will see if I can bleed at the Schrader valve to check for some pressure. I will check for spark and try a different key.

I'm with check for sparks

Thanks, its on the list.

Yeap, that one looks like either fuel is missing, or the spark is missing.
The lights does look alright, although I never seen the battery an oil lights flashing. I didn't have a no start either.
Although you can hear the fuel pump running, there can be problems on the fuel line. Best you could do is to read the fuel pressure if you can. Or you can take a spark plug out after crancking and see if there are traces of petrol on it.
With the spark, the spark plugs could be faulty or the coils, or the leads. You should test if there's any spark.

Thanks, the symbols flashing was how it was recorded on the video, it was not evident when looking at it. Will check for some fuel pressure and spark. I will bring spare plugs with me in case I need to try them.

Are you sure the pumps priming for a couple of seconds as you turn the ignition on

I can here the blowers start

Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Got the car here for a few day 1.2 petrol 2011 Going to post a few pictures and video of some simple and basic tests My well be a bit random as they pop into my head and might sort them into the proper order later

www.fiatforum.com

Listen here if you have an assistant

I take it the battery and oil is staying on and it's just the camera making it flicker

Thanks, the sound of priming was just like on your video, but I will check more carefully by listening at the petrol cap. Ya the flicker of symbols was not obvious to me, think it was just how it was captured by the camera.

There's quite a bit we know from the video

ECU is talking to the body computer
The body computer is talking to the dash
There petrol in the car
It's not the earth strap
The crank sensor is working
The battery is good
The cars got compression

Agreed. Had a good poke at earthing and seemed really solid.

I think one of the spark plugs has failed, I'm assuming its a 1.2 Litre FIRE engine? Mine won't start with 1 plug failed. Its an easy fix if that is the case. It might bump start, in which case its easy to check for the failed spark plug.

Thanks, I feel like the car would start with one bad plug, but I could be wrong. I will check for spark tomorrow. I have a spare set of plugs so can replace as needed.

 

[Mike1alike]

I will try using a different key – simple to do so why now, but does not feel like a strong candidate for the issue

That would make absolutely no difference. There's ni IMMO light on the dash. You can give it a go, though.

 

[Mike1alike]

• If the spark is clear and visible then ignition is all good
• Repeat to ensure both coil packs are functional (will probably just check all spark plugs)

That sounds alright. But bear in mind spark under pressure looks different than spark in open air. So even if you see a spark, it might not be quite good. How old are the spark plugs? How old are the leads?

 

[AnthonyH]

Thanks, I feel like the car would start with one bad plug, but I could be wrong. I will check for spark tomorrow. I have a spare set of plugs so can replace as needed.

I think you should swap out each spark plug one by one, or just change them all. Checking for spark like you're going to is a generic test, it won't tell you if one plug has failed.

And did you try to bump start the car? if not it is probably going to get home.

 

[DTanner]

That sounds alright. But bear in mind spark under pressure looks different than spark in open air. So even if you see a spark, it might not be quite good. How old are the spark plugs? How old are the leads?

Thanks. The spark plugs are around two years old (they are DCPR7E-N-10) and the leads a lot longer (maybe 5 years).

I think you should swap out each spark plug one by one, or just change them all. Checking for spark like you're going to is a generic test, it won't tell you if one plug has failed.

And did you try to bump start the car? if not it is probably going to get home.

Thanks. Ya, I may well do this. In the first instance I was going to check if I have ignition on cylinders 1 and 3. That way I can confirm that the basic system and coil packs are working with relatively little effort. My thinking is that if there was no spark I would start looking at the coil packs and if there was spark I would look at the plugs in the car. But ya I will likely just change the plugs to see. Thanks.

 

[koalar]

These engines will start on and run nicely on 3 cylinders

They run badly on two

Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

You can tell if the coil pack is getting a control signal and giving a good spark like this If one is weeker and the spark does not jump as far than the others it's suspect It is possible to get a jolt if you do something wrong, probably not a good idea if you have a pace maker As long as the...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[AnthonyH]

Thanks. The spark plugs are around two years old (they are DCPR7E-N-10) and the leads a lot longer (maybe 5 years).


Thanks. Ya, I may well do this. In the first instance I was going to check if I have ignition on cylinders 1 and 3. That way I can confirm that the basic system and coil packs are working with relatively little effort. My thinking is that if there was no spark I would start looking at the coil packs and if there was spark I would look at the plugs in the car. But ya I will likely just change the plugs to see. Thanks.

Good luck and let us know how you get along

 

[SPORTPACK50]

Is there any chance that it could be something to do with the fuel cut off switch, possibly triggered or faulty?

 

[Mike1alike]

Is there any chance that it could be something to do with the fuel cut off switch, possibly triggered or faulty?

No. If that would be, the fuel pump wouldn't run at all. There would be only 5 V on its 12 V feed line.

 

[Mike1alike]

Is there any chance you put diesel instead of petrol last time you filled up?

 

[DTanner]

Is there any chance that it could be something to do with the fuel cut off switch, possibly triggered or faulty?

No. If that would be, the fuel pump wouldn't run at all. There would be only 5 V on its 12 V feed line.

Thanks. This came up in my checks so I found the switch and pushed it. As mentioned by Mike my understanding looking in to it is that if the pump can be heard to prime then the cut-off is not the issue. I will double check this based on Koalar's advice to remove the petrol cap and listen for the priming there as someone else switches the ignition on (but does not start the engine).

Is there any chance you put diesel instead of petrol last time you filled up?

I was the one filling it last and can vividly remember checking it was petrol - I am pretty particular about this. That said some of the symptoms fit so it is a good suggestion. There was no smoke from the exhaust and I was checking as the car was struggling and we were around 50 miles in from the last fill. I will think on this but it seems very, very unlikely.