Technical Mysterious leak

[Ritmo59]

My first enquiry to the forum, which is a bit long but bear with me. I've owned my 3-door Punto Grande 1.2 petrol engine since 2015 and know her pretty well by now. A few months ago I became aware that the nearside rear passenger footwell was full of water. I purchased a Karcher wet vac and using that and the heater plus airing the car on dry days all was well. I took the car to the village garage for examiantion and they could find no reason for the leak. Then it happened again...and again, always after rain and whether the car had been driven or had remained on the drive. We get a lot of heavy rain in Cornwall so this issue needed urgent attention. Garage mechanics had another look and one mechanic even checked inside the rear wheel arch as he said he'd had a similar issue with an old Honda, where water was getting in under the wheel arch, but no dice as all was solid on my car. Ithen took the car to a garage that specalises in refits of windows and seals to campervans, and the first thing the guy did was look at the door seals. He said he felt the passenger door seal was very soft and on its way out so that might be where water was getting in. I managed to source a used replacement seal, and the village garage fitted it for me. I checked the inside of the car after rain had fallen and all was well, until the night before Storm Eowyn hit when we had torrential rain and howling winds. Next morning the rear footwell was once again flooded. Village garage say they don't see how even super strong winds could force water under the new seal, so I'm now at the point of wondering what to do next. It's possible the replacemrent seal was also weak due to age, and has also failed, however the driver side original seal is still working as it should. It should be noted that there is no physical damage to the actual door, which appears to fit perfctly into the body of the car when closed, or to the car body around it. Passenger door not used that much as I rarely have passengers. Has anyone here experienced a similar situation, and if so how did you resolve it? Currently I have the car wedged partly inside the small car port to keep rain off, and can only drive her on dry days - which is inconvenient to say the least especially as we have no local public trasnsport. Any help gratefully received.

 

[bugsymike]

Water ingress problems on cars could fill a book.
If there is no water in front of car then you can rule out a favourite of replacement bonded windscreen poor fit/seal which I have seen several times.
So my advice is to remove all the carpets and covers etc. including in the boot area, then closely look at any seams that appear discoloured, particularly where a joint in a metal panel and around rear lights etc.
Water can creep/seep a long way.
Had one a few years ago on Forum and owner was tearing hair out over it, after close inspection of lots of floor and boot floor areas, found one seal had a slight brown line compared with the other seals, water was coming in at that point and creeping along to the rear floor, drivers side in this case.
As an apprentice in the 60s I used to get shut in the boot with a torch whilst someone ran a hose over the cars.

 

[Ritmo59]

Thanks for your reply, Bugsymike. I'll try removing the carpets as suggested (and hope it is an easy job to remove and replace) and will check the seals for differentiation in colour from norm. My initial thought is, is it possible for a parked up car to get leaks into the floor area? I'd originally wondered if there was a leak through the underside of the car, especially as we have puddles on the lanes that resemble lakes when it's rained hard, and water could be forced up that way if there's a weak/rusted area. Ruled that one out as soon as the water was still getting in when I hadn't actually taken the car off the driver for a few days.

Water ingress problems on cars could fill a book.
If there is no water in front of car then you can rule out a favourite of replacement bonded windscreen poor fit/seal which I have seen several times.
So my advice is to remove all the carpets and covers etc. including in the boot area, then closely look at any seams that appear discoloured, particularly where a joint in a metal panel and around rear lights etc.
Water can creep/seep a long way.
Had one a few years ago on Forum and owner was tearing hair out over it, after close inspection of lots of floor and boot floor areas, found one seal had a slight brown line compared with the other seals, water was coming in at that point and creeping along to the rear floor, drivers side in this case.
As an apprentice in the 60s I used to get shut in the boot with a torch whilst someone ran a hose over the cars.

Just taken this photo of a chip on the nearside rear lights. Wondered if this might be the culprit, although it's been there a while?

 

[AnthonyH]

The water will drip downwards, so the leak will be around the rear nearside door, I think that rules out the light being the source of the problem.

Unless the boot is also wet?

 

[Ritmo59]

The water will drip downwards, so the leak will be around the rear nearside door, I think that rules out the light being the source of the problem.

Unless the boot is also wet?

Thanks for that information, AnthonyH. I just went out and lifted the boot liner; although I'm not able to lift the spare wheeI felt around it at the bottom of the recess and all I managed to feel seems bone dry. Also just checked the interior front and back floors (both sides) and apart form the original problem area (now drying out well) all is equally bone dry. Waiting for my garage to get back to me with a date for taking the car in, stripping out the floor covering and checking everything as Bugsymike suggested.

 

[AnthonyH]

The door seal might still be a problem. The other things to check are the car door drains. The punto has 3 per door, if one of those gets blocked it could overflow. To see what i mean about the drains see the video below.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for your reply, Bugsymike. I'll try removing the carpets as suggested (and hope it is an easy job to remove and replace) and will check the seals for differentiation in colour from norm. My initial thought is, is it possible for a parked up car to get leaks into the floor area? I'd originally wondered if there was a leak through the underside of the car, especially as we have puddles on the lanes that resemble lakes when it's rained hard, and water could be forced up that way if there's a weak/rusted area. Ruled that one out as soon as the water was still getting in when I hadn't actually taken the car off the driver for a few days.

Just taken this photo of a chip on the nearside rear lights. Wondered if this might be the culprit, although it's been there a while?

Generally water doesn't flow up hill
So I would start with boot area once spare wheel and mat etc. removed.
As @AnthonyH mentioned chip in bottom of light lens unlikely source, although the rubber seal behind the lamp between the body of the car is often a suspect area on many makes of car. So check for water stains/discolouring below it.
Incidentally has the vehicle been involved in any accidents in it's past, as often even a small one can open the seams of welds allowing water in, no matter how professional the repair was.

 

[the green vanper]

It's a 3 door car. What about the seal of the rear side window? I know the 2nd gen punto (they call it classic I think) had this opening window with the hatch (like the older cars had), but no idea if it was still used in the 2008 model and the OP's car.

If so, I'd check that as first thing. The window has 3 contact points in such case.

And even if it's a fixed window the seal might be damaged or the window frame can be rusted underneath the seal. It's a 17 years old FIAT already. It might had an accident before OP's bought it.

Are all windows from same producer and year? There's a stamp on the bottom of each of them.

 

[AnthonyH]

It's a 3 door car. What about the seal of the rear side window? I know the 2nd gen punto (they call it classic I think) had this opening window with the hatch (like the older cars had), but no idea if it was still used in the 2008 model and the OP's car.

If so, I'd check that as first thing. The window has 3 contact points in such case.

And even if it's a fixed window the seal might be damaged or the window frame can be rusted underneath the seal. It's a 17 years old FIAT already. It might had an accident before OP's bought it.

Are all windows from same producer and year? There's a stamp on the bottom of each of them.

Those windows on a 3 door GP don't open, so there's no seal that could wear away.

I've purposely avoided changing seals on my GP, i can remember trying to "fix" seals on caravans and other cars and it never went well, and indeed made things worse lol. I suspect thats the case here, the OP had a failing door seal and then hasn't put the next one on quite right. He could have another go but seems to have booked it into a garage to let them take care of it (hopefully).

 

[Ritmo59]

Generally water doesn't flow up hill
So I would start with boot area once spare wheel and mat etc. removed.
As @AnthonyH mentioned chip in bottom of light lens unlikely source, although the rubber seal behind the lamp between the body of the car is often a suspect area on many makes of car. So check for water stains/discolouring below it.
Incidentally has the vehicle been involved in any accidents in it's past, as often even a small one can open the seams of welds allowing water in, no matter how professional the repair was.

Re accidents, not since I've owned her but back in 2017 I reversed into soemone's garage (with their permission!) and they'd left a dark wheelie bin right behind where the car goes. I didn't see it in the dark and even at a very, very low speed it has left some crumpled dents in the top area of the boot lid. However, the water issue has only happened since the end quarter of 2024 so I guess it's unlikely to be related. I had the car valeted about a week ago. Just been to check for any stains/discolouration beneath the rear lights installation, and it's all clean and normal looking.

 

[Ritmo59]

Those windows on a 3 door GP don't open, so there's no seal that could wear away.

I've purposely avoided changing seals on my GP, i can remember trying to "fix" seals on caravans and other cars and it never went well, and indeed made things worse lol. I suspect thats the case here, the OP had a failing door seal and then hasn't put the next one on quite right. He could have another go but seems to have booked it into a garage to let them take care of it (hopefully).

The replacement seal that I bought, which was used (can't find a new one anywhere, but someone may know where I can?) was installeld by my local garage. Maybe they didn't do such a great job but it might be hard to persuade them of that. Garage has not yet come back to me about booking in as they don't work Saturdays. Incidentally, I replaced the entire rear heated window last year because the heating element wasn't coming on; same garage told me a sector in the window was likely broken. I got a new one installeld by the camper van place, as my garage wasn't keen to do the job. It still failed to work on the first day I neded to unsteam the back windows. The guy at the camper van had a good look over the car and told me there was an issue with the loom on the electrics, and he had to create an earth to get it to work again. It works perfectly now, but what a shame I had to repalce that original window when it wasn't the problem. Maybe I need to go to a different garage to resolve this current issue.

 

[AnthonyH]

The replacement seal that I bought, which was used (can't find a new one anywhere, but someone may know where I can?) was installeld by my local garage. Maybe they didn't do such a great job but it might be hard to persuade them of that. Garage has not yet come back to me about booking in as they don't work Saturdays. Incidentally, I replaced the entire rear heated window last year because the heating element wasn't coming on; same garage told me a sector in the window was likely broken. I got a new one installeld by the camper van place, as my garage wasn't keen to do the job. It still failed to work on the first day I neded to unsteam the back windows. The guy at the camper van had a good look over the car and told me there was an issue with the loom on the electrics, and he had to create an earth to get it to work again. It works perfectly now, but what a shame I had to repalce that original window when it wasn't the problem. Maybe I need to go to a different garage to resolve this current issue.

Doesn't sound like you've had much luck!

I personally wouldn't go back to a garage that had failed to fix a problem the first time, because to me its rewarding failure. Some would disagree though, they'd say the garage is narrowing down on the problem and they're more likely to get it right second time. What you going to do?

 

[the green vanper]

That's a 3 door grande punto rear quarter.

 

[varesecrazy]

Those windows on a 3 door GP don't open, so there's no seal that could wear away.

My 3 door. Has had water dribbles showing across the Bonded in rear windows (its a leaky car.)

Wheel well is often swimming

The panel sealant is a common failure..

But on a 2015 that is relatively new..
My 2012 is the dryest out of my 4 x 199 bodies (the Alfa seems OK..)

 

[AnthonyH]

View attachment 459741

That's a 3 door grande punto rear quarter.

An impressive photo! Looks like someones been doing some structural work. How did you find the photo?

The panel sealant is a common failure..

I've not come across this one, but its a defintitely maybe.

The replacement seal that I bought, which was used (can't find a new one anywhere, but someone may know where I can?) was installeld by my local garage. Maybe they didn't do such a great job but it might be hard to persuade them of that. Garage has not yet come back to me about booking in as they don't work Saturdays. Incidentally, I replaced the entire rear heated window last year because the heating element wasn't coming on; same garage told me a sector in the window was likely broken. I got a new one installeld by the camper van place, as my garage wasn't keen to do the job. It still failed to work on the first day I neded to unsteam the back windows. The guy at the camper van had a good look over the car and told me there was an issue with the loom on the electrics, and he had to create an earth to get it to work again. It works perfectly now, but what a shame I had to repalce that original window when it wasn't the problem. Maybe I need to go to a different garage to resolve this current issue.

As per the suggestion by varescrazy you could check if the rear side window glue/adhesive has failed if you get a hose or some other water on it.

 

[the green vanper]

An impressive photo! Looks like someones been doing some structural work. How did you find the photo?

From a breaker, this quarter is for sale.

rear side window glue/adhesive has failed if you get a hose or some other water on it.

Or might be rusted below the adhesive. I had such problem like 10 years ago on a more or less 25 years old Mazda's windshield.

 

[Ritmo59]

Doesn't sound like you've had much luck!

I personally wouldn't go back to a garage that had failed to fix a problem the first time, because to me its rewarding failure. Some would disagree though, they'd say the garage is narrowing down on the problem and they're more likely to get it right second time. What you going to do?

Tend to agree with you about rewarding failure. They are generally good but sometimes are really not great. Having a think about it; there's another garage about 10 miles away who have been very good with my partner's Kia, so will approach them.

 

[bugsymike]

Tend to agree with you about rewarding failure. They are generally good but sometimes are really not great. Having a think about it; there's another garage about 10 miles away who have been very good with my partner's Kia, so will approach them.

Water leaks can be very hard to trace even for professionals and their time has to be accounted for otherwise they would go bankrupt, but I agree it is frustrating.
In the 70s one dealership I worked for had over 40 pages of service bulletins on "water ingress" on a certain make and this was from brand new!

 

[AnthonyH]

In the 70s one dealership I worked for had over 40 pages of service bulletins on "water ingress" on a certain make and this was from brand new!

I googled this to have a guess, just out of interest, my guess is the Allegro?!

 

[bugsymike]

I googled this to have a guess, just out of interest, my guess is the Allegro?!

Lada.