Panda (Classic) My Sisley, Panda 4x4 - division north

[kolza]

Managed to get one OE kit (valve+gasket) ordered in Poland, costed just over £11.

 

[kolza]

I've done some more reserch on coil springs compatible with panda 4x4.

Off to scrappy tommorow morning for few different pairs.
Results will follow.

Plus it is wheelbarrow day tommorow so i might get some other bits, Mitsu slash guards, alloys etc.

 

[kolza]

I've brought two pairs of alternative coil springs wich will be trail fited. as that the best mothod and i have to take the parts off anyway to ship them back.

From left:
- 410mm long, 12mm rod - spring from my lift kit - to be send back.
- std panda 4x4 coil spring - 370mm, 10.65mm rod,
- new type 1 - 2mm more in diametre, top coil smaller, less coils, rod 11mm.
- new type 2 - 4 mm more in diametre, dual rate coil spring, rod 11.2mm

I've might just wasted few £ and time, but if you will not try you won't know.

I've delved deeply to understand the basics or coil springs design.
It might seems trivial but it is pretty complicated.
After lecture od few interesting write-ups it looks like the worse what can be done is to chop pre-design spring as a methop of car lowering as not only the ride height will change.

 

[kolza]

Freddy, any chance you've had chance to measure that coil spring rod diametre? Coil pitch would be appreciated as well.
Loking on that FB photo the left one from my photo is much longer but same number of coils. Confused.

edit: please ignore as i've just seen your reply on FB. now it's all clear again. My springs definately goes back!

 

[panda1408]

I can measure total length for you if you want Jacob?

If you have no luck with the new type springs you have then the 11.5mm are the way to go. I'm not sure what exactly they are from, Skoda I presume? You may need to add spacers to the top of the strut to get the same amount of lift, not sure if you already have those?

John's Sisley drives absolutely perfectly, I could not really tell it was lifted at all whilst on the move so this set up works well!

 

[kolza]

Yes, felicia estate euro spec, I have them fitted currently no need for further measurments. In my setup the std shock is causing the issues as it's std length/stroke so fully stretched all time. Spring supplied by Riazli4x4 looks like felicia estate but russian spec with 12mm rod.
It was hard but I'm nearly there with negotiations.

 

[panda1408]

Ahh, ok did not realise that. The shocks supplied with mine and John's kit are just standard 4x4 shocks with no mods. Do the Rizali ones have a raised spring seat?

 

[kolza]

Current ones are std 4x4 Delphi gas twin tube, agreed replacement will have longer tube & rod + higher spring seat +4cm.

I've swapped the springs for the 11.5mm night before last Panday as the 12mm ones were dangerouse to drive. Lost some lift in favour of comfort. I've made clear to Rialzi4x4 that the kit was +7cm but i will not accept such a rigid ride as it is dangerous so it is down to them to supply me with solution for +7cm kit keeping exact same offroad properties and road comfort

 

[panda1408]

Let's hope they do the right thing and come up with something more suitable, it's obvious they have thrown together the kits without much testing or development, not good!

 

[kolza]

I've brought two pairs of alternative coil springs wich will be trail fited. .

I've might just wasted few £ and time, but if you will not try you won't know.

Had some time finally to remove all the front Rialzi parts which will go back to Italy next week. Did not want to leave the car with supported front as I'm hoping to see some snow soon, so i've started building up new struts with spare std Delphi gas shocks.

One pair from above photo seems to be really good one!!!

Good news - £24 spend on scrappy wasn't wasted!
Bad news - few hundred £ spend with Rialzi was wasted - huge mistake! Looks like more negotiations will take place now.

Back to the springs

First from right (Cityrover rear) would be perfect but the Outside Diameter is too big 111mm. Would be fine at the bottom but the top mount would be problematic.

Second from right.

Dimmensions [ replacement parts details]
Rod diameter [mm]:10,65 [10.75]
Coil Outside diameter at the bottom [mm]:107 [106]
Number of coils: 7.75
Free Length [mm]:395 [389]
Colour code mark: White / Green
Top coil OD is only 96mm, but the next one down is 98mm already.

Modifications:- cut off half of the top coil (7.25 ) free lenght will not change as the coil is "flat", this mod will allow top coil to follow rubber top mount profile.

Car:

• fitted with front bulbar,
• modified (heavy) sump guard,
• 155/70R13 Fedima F/OR tyres,
• shock abrorbers Delphi DG7972,
• modified gearbox flange.

Coil spring facts:

• longer by 30mm from my std panda 4x4 spring,
• same wire diameter as panda 4x4 spring,
• less coils ( less material), biger pitch,
• adaptable with standard 4x4 shock .
• magic camber bolts and hub carrier top hole opened by 3mm

Results:

• only 20mm difference between jacked up and on the road.
• 45mm lift - yes, 45mm with coil spring only
  
• road comfort kept at exactly same level as std spring,

Car before job started, as came back from Dales.
(strut to body top spacer 10mm, std length gas shock from Rialzi, Felicia estate spring 11.5mm rod, cut to 10.75 coil, +/- 400mm long.

With changed shock and coil spring, biger bottom size can be noticed but still prety secure, ruber tube/sleve will be used in future.

Fully fitted and on the ground, after 2 miles drive body dropped at the front by extra 6mm.

Height , ground to mark at the wheel arch?

• current - 714mm,
• previous setup - 702mm,
• standard - 670mm.

Currently used Delphi shock absorber had the rod longer by 8-10mm and bit different bottom part, other than that I can't explain the height gain.

I will add the details to the `Alternative coil springs thread` soon.

IMPORTANT: Modified gearbox flange is highly recommended at this lift level.




Coil springs came from rear suspension of Rover 25 (RF), Streetwise are the same.

 

[andyholli]

Great work Jacob and a relief that all your time researching and trying things out is paying off.

When can I put in my order for a pair of your struts please?

 

[kolza]

I've done more reserch to ideatify those springs in more details.
I'm still impresed with how well they work in panda.

Rover part number: RKB101660,
Colour code: Green/ White,
They are a bit conical as the overall diameter change from top to bottom, but the coil pitch increase from one coil to other thefore spring rate is still linear.

Rod/wire diameter is really close to std panda4x4, the most noticible difference is the number of coils wich give much shorter rod lenght and results of higher spring rate.

R25 spring rate is 21N/mm were panda 4x4 is 17+/-1 N/mm. Half of top coil was removed but as it was squared off end coil it should not make much impact on the N figure.

R25 total weight is 1040kg (front 560kg, rear 480kg)
Panda 4x4 total weight is 790kg ( front~480kg, rear 310kg).

Looking on the weight figures the spring load remains the same - same load characteristic.

 

[kolza]

Just drained gearbox oil, no water contamination - only awful metalic haze like gearbox fairy would drop 100g of stardust there. Reason was to check front diff clearance at the flange as i haven't done that when the moded flange was fitted. Will leave as is as it stopped winnig few day ago. Two big metal chunks were stuck to drain plug.

 

[andyholli]

Stardust will be aluminium shaved off the casings - there's loads of that so nothing to worry about..
Steel chunks possibly off the reverse idler gear which gets a hard time if we don't wait long enough for the shafts to stop spinning before engaging reverse.

- Just my guess.

 

[kolza]

 

[Dragon Man]

this is the visual difference between the Skoda Felecia Estate rear spring on the left to the Rover 25 spring on the right:



not being a copycat or anything.. ahem..

 

[Bartpanda]

not being a copycat or anything.. ahem..

bought this set yesterday ...will check ,if the rover upper mounts {the rubber part}are possible to use with panda shock/upper mount, this'll eliminate the need of cutting the 0.5 of the coil maby?

 

[kolza]

bought this set yesterday ...will check ,if the rover upper mounts {the rubber part}are possible to use with panda shock/upper mount, this'll eliminate the need of cutting the 0.5 of the coil maby?

Great idea Bart, tbh i did not even thouth about that, and just attacje the centre nut.

 

[kolza]

this is the visual difference between the Skoda Felecia Estate rear spring on the left to the Rover 25 spring on the right:



not being a copycat or anything.. ahem..

John, skoda's estate springs are normally cut to 10.5 coils for p4x4.

In simple worlds: coils pitch ( number of coils or total lenght of wire) is responsible for load carry capacity, wire diameter makes the reaction to bumps ( flexibility).
So simply R25 have same wire dia, but less material therefore the ride height is increased.

 

[Bartpanda]

I've received the rear rover 25 shocks. Have no correct tools to disassemble at home, and check if the upper ruber element is compatible with fiat upper mount.For now just a pics of rover 25 spring vs. panda with favorit hathback spring