Technical Multijet timing chain failure!

[MountainRunner]

On of the things that attracted me to buying a Panda 1.3 multijet was its excellent economy and the fact it had a Timing Chain. Great me thinks
Because timing chains last the life of an engine and in a diesel that could be over 200,000 miles! My old VW lupo by comparison needed a new timing belt at 70,000 miles or 5 years, even then the belt was in excellent condition at 14 year old.

So here's me thinking I got an excellent 2007 Panda, only done 40,000 miles no worries about changing timing belts and 50 mpg urban which I'm getting £30 road tax and cheap insurance

That was until I discovered an oil leak from the Timing chain cover
I suspected the Chain had recently been changed at less than 40,000 miles! Ok its been changed but its gonna have to be done again in 40,000 miles!

So I looked on the Internet and found on many sites that only 40,000 miles is about the life of a multijet timing chain

It's something to do with the tensioner.

Now I'd gone from a car with a perishable timing belt that lasted 70k to a car with a timing chain that only lasts 40k

These chains are expensive to replace around £1000 so what I save in fuel, cheap insurance and tax disc costs is a false economy

Why on earth did Fiat use timing chains in the multijet ? Why couldn't they use belts instead if they can't 'perfect'

chains? The Peugeot HDi has a belt that lasts 120,000 miles!

I have read of other issues too: clutches that need frequent replacement , air Filters that fill up with rain ruining the engine, car keys that fail, cylinder head issues etc.

Now my lovely lupo is gone It looks like my economical Panda is forever gonna have me digging deep in my pockets for the latest maintenance bill, whilst I may as well have got a 5 litre rolls royce, after all the running costs couldn't be much more!

Multijet? Pure false economy!

 

[bsod]

Perhaps you should sell it? the petrol-panda is cheaper to buy, fairly low running costs, cheap spareparts, and have a timing belt. The belt is easy to change...

 

[Wee Smurf]

The chain should not have had issues at such an early age / low mileage.

Your Panda may have had the misfortune to have had a chain installed of the same make which mine had as a replacement at a Fiat specialist. The guides failed less than a year / under 10k later. Can't say that I'd ever trust that job to an independent again. I got it replaced at the main dealer instead. I expect it to last another good 70k miles at least.

 

[306maxi]

so has your car actually broken or are you just thinking the sky has fallen?

 

[Matt100HP]

So really it's a £400-£500 (going by the numbers off the other thread) job which needs doing every ~70k miles? Hardly a massive expense on a regular basis. Most cars will need it doing once or twice before they end up in a breaker's yard anyway; I can't see too many Pandas making it to 210,000 miles and those that do are unlikely to have £400-£500 spent on one job.

 

[Trimdoner]

Our MJ has 92K and still the original chain/tensioners - quiet as a mouse chain-wise. Regular good quality oil changes is probably all that's needed?
No mechanical problems at all except clutch (another post) and regular front tyre replacement at 8/10K even with tracking perfect.....

 

[Wee Smurf]

That's an awful lot of tyres! Is it the inside wear?

 

[The Beard]

Our '05 MJ had its chain changed last year at around 82,000 miles, mainly because it had started to make a slight rattle. l can't remember what the bill was, but l seem to remember it was about the £400 mark from a local garage in Sandbach using FIAT chain kit.

When my Dad brought home the brochure for the new car he was going to buy in 1971, the brochure stated that "The near-indestructible neoprene cam belt was designed to last the life of the engine."

Camchains were heavy, noisy and expensive which was why belts came in, because the guides and adjuster were made of hard, expensive steel they seem to have been replaced by nylon or other synthetic material and I'm pretty certain it's this, rather than the chain that causes the problem. I was also told by the mechanic that the reason the labour costs are high is because unlike an older car with hardened steel guides and tensioner you can't just feed the new belt in following the old one, you have to virtually dismantle the engine.

Having said that, leaving a cambelt in any car to 70,000 miles is dicing with disaster as they've been known to snap anywhere from 30,000 miles onward.

 

[daveofkent]

Hello,

Sounds like a case of buyers remorse, tbh i'd look on the bright side. If the chain's just been done then you dont have to worry, at least for a long time and you can control the all important servicing schedule.

The multijet or any small diesel should not be purchased for 'saving money' reasons, ever. You'll only be disappointed. That goes for all small diesels fiat, vw ford anyone.

Although psychologically, it feels nice to get good mpg. In the small city car sector especially, your are unlikely to ever get your money back from the increased purchase price unless you do huge miles, drive just right and never have anything go wrong. IMO in saloons and bigger it starts to make sense, and I live in a country where diesel is cheaper than petrol.

What you have got though is a torquey, fun small car that wont break the bank and is quite versatile.

For those wanting merely to save money, i'd recommend the 1.2 - good mpg, easy to work on and everything is dirt cheap for it. even a 2nd hand engine could probably be had for <£500

 

[GrandeGuy]

It's wrong oil, you need very good correct grade, or all chained cars fail,
They want oil changed at 6months,
This is the inevitable result of manufactures stretching oil services out,
Mines 21000 intervals, even the fiat tech said this was crazy. I do mine every months no matter of millage.

 

[Trimdoner]

Wee Smurf: yes, always the inners. First time on the original Conti's when I was alerted by a strange swishing noise - steel cords on tarmac at just over 8,000 miles
Back to dealers, tracking checked and ok. Didn't believe them so checked again at my usual tyre supplier - it was spot on. Checked twice since.
And I don't do wheelspins or screech around corners and roundabouts - my quest is maximum mpg, not mph

The most I've managed is about 11k - the first few times I used expensive tyres, now I just use cheapo's. Rear tyres lasted about 50k, and are only on the second set still with plenty of tread!

 

[jrkitching]

The multijet or any small diesel should not be purchased for 'saving money' reasons, ever. You'll only be disappointed. That goes for all small diesels fiat, vw ford anyone.

:yeahthat:

Our 1.2 Petrol Panda has cost us 10.8p/mile for fuel, averaged over about 53000 miles.

Fuelly average mpg over the last 10 tankfuls is 60.3.

I've spent less than £200 in total on servicing and repairs, and about £200 on a set of tyres.

An extra £1000 in repairs over the same mileage would be the equivalent of around 12mpg.

Back to dealers, tracking checked and ok. Didn't believe them so checked again at my usual tyre supplier - it was spot on. Checked twice since.

Many Pandas are hopelessly out of track when first delivered from the factory - I know mine was.

Ignore the recommended settings and set the car to track dead parallel with the weight on the wheels.

I managed around 36,000 miles out of the first set of fronts; not brilliant, but better than many have reported.

 

[HHR]

MountainRunner, what makes you think it has been replaced already?

They should last pretty much the life of the car, but as others have said, it's down to use of the correct oil and frequent changes (I change oil every 6k regardless of what manufacturers say).

 

[Goudrons]

As with any chain, like a chain on a bike/motorbike, it needs lubrication otherwise it'll wear and stretch.

The lubrication needs to be clean as dirt and debris in the oil will act as a cutting/grinding paste, accelerating wear.

Wear on the chain will also effect what the chain runs on, a slack chain or a chain with stiff links will wear and hook the teeth of sprockets, causing the chain to jump, snag and or snap.

So lack of regular oil changes and leaks from the chain's cover aren't going to do it any favours.

On the subject of uneven tyre wear, the front wishbone bushes and bottom balljoint could be suspect.
Even if the tracking is spot on and the wheels are pointing in the right direction in relation to the straight ahead, the wheel camber (lean angle) maybe effected, leaning the wheel in at the top/out at the bottom effecting the inner edges of the tyres and that's usually wishbone/bottom balljoint wear.

 

[jrkitching]

Even if the tracking is spot on and the wheels are pointing in the right direction in relation to the straight ahead, the wheel camber (lean angle) maybe effected, leaning the wheel in at the top/out at the bottom effecting the inner edges of the tyres and that's usually wishbone/bottom balljoint wear.

Absolutely. And it's pointless (and probably impossible) to adjust the tracking if there's any play in the track rod ends.

Checking all of the steering and suspension components for wear is a necesary prerequisite to adjusting the geometry.

But mine came straight off the transporter from the factory with the tracking about 5mm out .

 

[Trimdoner]

Bottom arms (wishbones), track rod ends and drop links replaced just after 30K. Also rear shockers as the bushes collapsed.
Luckily all the replacements (non-original) have lasted much longer - still no wear in any front end joints or bushes.

The camber was checked second time around and was supposedly as it should be? I'd even thought about filing the top suspension mount boltholes to reduce the camber (old Escort rally car trick when used to increase camber ) but thought better of it....
A couple of local delivery drivers who use Doblo's say that their vans eat tyres as well - but maybe not driven as gently!

 

[daveofkent]

Bottom arms (wishbones), track rod ends and drop links replaced just after 30K. Also rear shockers as the bushes collapsed.
Luckily all the replacements (non-original) have lasted much longer - still no wear in any front end joints or bushes.

The camber was checked second time around and was supposedly as it should be? I'd even thought about filing the top suspension mount boltholes to reduce the camber (old Escort rally car trick when used to increase camber ) but thought better of it....
A couple of local delivery drivers who use Doblo's say that their vans eat tyres as well - but maybe not driven as gently!

I can't see how the camber can be correct and eat tyres every 8k on one corner, I'd expect a a car that does that to look like one of those 'stanced' lupos that the dubber boys have.

Im unsure if this is a diesel only thing, but i did 45k miles on my 1.1 tyres from new then when i sold it at 85k miles, the 2nd set was still well legal.

The tyres on my 1.2 are wearing evenly for side to side and after about 10k of mileage, i cant see any noticeable wear at all.

I hope you find the answer , it must be annoying to ruin tyres like that.

 

[306maxi]

Bottom arms (wishbones), track rod ends and drop links replaced just after 30K. Also rear shockers as the bushes collapsed.
Luckily all the replacements (non-original) have lasted much longer - still no wear in any front end joints or bushes.

The camber was checked second time around and was supposedly as it should be? I'd even thought about filing the top suspension mount boltholes to reduce the camber (old Escort rally car trick when used to increase camber ) but thought better of it....
A couple of local delivery drivers who use Doblo's say that their vans eat tyres as well - but maybe not driven as gently!

From what I've seen people seem to have most luck with upping their pressures a bit. My 500 still has the original tyres on at 68k, well I say the original tyres.... it's got two that came with it and 2 which were part worns with the same amount of tread as the ones which came off which my dealership destroyed with 6mm of toe out on the front after replacing the strut top mounts.

I have used winters in the colder months, but these tyres have done about 40+k miles and still have 3 to 4.5mm of tread on them.

 

[jrkitching]

I hope you find the answer , it must be annoying to ruin tyres like that.

From what others have posted, it seems to be something of a lottery with Pandas.

The factory-permitted tolerances are so wide that if you're close to the edge of the limit, your tyres will wear quite quickly, even though the car is within the published values.

This is particulary true of the rear geometry, which isn't (easily) adjustable - I've heard stories of main dealers replacing rear subframes under warranty in some cases.