General Money money money

[The Panda Nut]

Daffo had the brake fluid changed and the level sensor replaced to day. Worht the cost. They have started listing advisories and noted excessive tyre wear that I had already spotted so straight to Tyre Pros in Norwich and oh dear... its all over the place with rear camber out of spec as well. Tracking done and castor and toe are now 100% perfect, but the front tyres are really ruined. The track rods were seized and required heat to shift them and they sat they have rusted internally and really need changing. I do have a slight camber issue on one side that they thought may be springs??? Also required the gearbox selector shaft seal is now leaking and they want £145 to do it so I will have to stump up as I cannot contemplate bending at the moment. Discs and Pads are marginal too but S4P have discs and pads for £60 and track rod ends for £36 so with VAT another £111. I must remember to ask for FF discount which I have never done before. I hope this will be it for a while but the rear brakes may need renewal before long. If anyone knows if the Panda lV track rod ends are the same as the 2011Panda lll it would be useful so I can get all the bits together. Daughter is going to learn to change the track rod ends!

 

[koalar]

I have never had any fixed geometry car ever alter once set

except due to warn suspension parts

cars with adjustable camber via elongate slots do go out if wacked.

what was the rear camber ? They lean out at the top of the car ever been jacked under the centre of the axle


what sort of wear was on the tyres ? Even both sides or just one side?


is there an even gap. Top of the tyre to wheel arch, front side to side. If yes the spring idea can been thrown out the window. Why didn't they check this there and then ?

 

[rmjbn1]

I hope the tracking sorts out your tyre wear issues. Mine was chewing through one rear tyre when I got it.

its all over the place with rear camber out of spec as well.

How bad was the rear camber? You're probably aware there is no provision for adjustment of camber or toe on the rear axle.

Mine was good for camber, but toe was way out. This is my rear alignment read-out:

I've tried to correct mine by shimming the rear stub axle bolts:

I used shim washers, I know 09 johno did similar but with gasket material, which is probably a better idea.

I doubt any reputable mechanic would be prepared to carry out this kind of non-approved unscientific tinkering, so it would have to be DIY...

...it sounds like you have a willing home mechanic in your daughter! It's good to hear she's discovering the joys of messing about with cars

I must remember to ask for FF discount which I have never done before.

Donated FF members can access the S4P discount code here

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks rmjbn1. I think its not too bad but is going to eat tyres I think. The current situation is bad but not disastrous as the car has done about 20K so far and may manage another 15K at the current rate. I shall have this tyre turned round which will help.

I am considering a new axle as these are now only £130. I'm just not 100% on the 'new' axles, and wonder how I can be certain these are of top quality. I may also consider a new stub axle as I understand these are available. I shall observe the tyre wear first. I will change the fronts and keep the best one to turn and fit to the rear in the summer. The rear tyre is overall not too badly down on the inner edge, its worn across the whole tread to the inner edge. The o/s/f is skinned on its very edge. The car drives much better now, I should have taken it straight to the experts at the time of our disaster as I have found tyre places are extremely unreliable for suspension adjustments other than Tyre Pros. ATS by far and away the worst. As its camber the garage said it possibly the swing arm bush although I am unconvinced and suspect the stub axle may be bent. More investigation is needed. I will get the paperwork out and show you the before and after readings.

 

[koalar]

what are the numbers after the letters DOT on the side wall.

 

[The Panda Nut]

3 are 2018 weeks 41-49 and the one we replaced after damage is 2019 week 17. This does remind me to check Mondays tyres are 20 last quarter or newer though. Goodyears are unavailable so it will be continentals as per our TA so still acceptable. I do not like mixing tyres at all you cannot get fully balanced handling if the tyres grip differently.
Wear rates on that car are pretty high after 8000 miles they are visibly worn but I suppose I have been a lot less sensible driving him........ About 5mm left I think. Bravo did huge mileage before being thrown out at 3mm. c60K on the front and 80K on the rears, those were Bridgestones also replaced by Conti (Premium Contact 6) which were much more grippy especially in the wet.

 

[koalar]

what size tyres does your Panda run ?

 

[The Panda Nut]

165/65x14 its a 2011 Mylife

 

[The Panda Nut]

Now ordered track rod ends discs and pads £65 all in. Motor parts direct are quite a lot cheaper than S4P and I can collect them from local place. Happy with that. Parts are all blueprint.com (Febi Bilstein). I've had a few parts from them and have been very impressed with the quality so far.

I can still vividly remember the rear discs for my 2.2 Laguna. 20 Years ago £300!!!! Dont buy the odd one out in the range. But here I am with the slow selling Panda 4x4. Fortunately most bits are still common to several other Fiat Models. The exhaust system may well be expensive though. Will I ever learn.

 

[koalar]

Thanks rmjbn1. I think its not too bad but is going to eat tyres I think. The current situation is bad but not disastrous as the car has done about 20K so far and may manage another 15K at the current rate.

165/65x14 its a 2011 Mylife

35K out of small front tyre sounds about right??


most front tyres uneven wear are either worn rear arm bush or bent strut.


No amount of toe adjustment. Make any difference to uneven left to right wear.

 

[The Panda Nut]

35K out of small front tyre sounds about right??


most front tyres uneven wear are either worn rear arm bush or bent strut.


No amount of toe adjustment. Make any difference to uneven left to right wear.

Do you know if the rear bushes are available or am I right that a whole axle is required. I will see how the rear tyres go once its all fettled and if they wear I think I will grasp the bull and change the whole lump if necessary. Its a pretty easy job just heavy. The girls will have to help with the raising and lowering. Just a lot of faffing about.

I must then check the strut. And the arms although these were done 1bot 15K ago. I always expect things to last. These days that's foolish. The rear dampers were changed when we did the damaged tyre. I have two Bilsteins with under 1000 miles on them (FOC) waiting for a new home. I couldn't stop them rattling. I would be happy with c 30K out of front tyres and not too bothered about 18-20K its the Bravo that totally spoiled me. My last work Vectra did 53K on the fronts and nearly 90K on the rears too. and It was driven at work to achieve a profit on fuel so was never hammered and only occasionally driven very fast. I suspect my youngest does chuck her car about a fair bit and without a lot of mechanical sensitivity too. She does not seem to be able to hear tyre scrub, and only thinks its getting bad if the tyres ares squealing!

 

[DaveMcT]

The rear camber and castor is fixed but as said above, the hubs are retained on high tensile studs. Mine pulled left with correct front end alignment. I used coke can shims and 0.7mm aluminium to adjust my back axle to correct the pull. The studs are over-long so I made U shape shims.

 

[koalar]

Do you know if the rear bushes are available or am I right that a whole axle is required.

standard
upgraded
race


https://www.powerflex.co.uk/products/Gen+2+169+2WD+(2003-2012)-2841/1.html



there not listed on eper but shop4parts and ebay are full of them




I have never had one fail. Even at 200K miles. But then I have never really inspected them so could have been hiding hidden wear?

 

[koalar]

The rear camber and castor is fixed but as said above, the hubs are retained on high tensile studs. Mine pulled left with correct front end alignment. I used coke can shims and 0.7mm aluminium to adjust my back axle to correct the pull. The studs are over-long so I made U shape shims.

the Panda can be made to pull to left, centre and right at will.

it uses electric self centring and the centre position can be shifted anywhere electronically

making the rear point off centre by shimming the rear is not the correct way to go


the only reason to shim the rear would be to correct a deficit in the axle and then again getting a Good axle isnt difficult unless you have disc brakes

 

[koalar]

I must then check the strut. And the arms although these were done 1bot 15K ago. I always expect things to last. These days that's foolish. The rear dampers were changed when we did the damaged tyre.

depend and lots of factors

quality of the parts
chemical contamination
Road condition / ramps
how they are fitted

and so on.

its possible to get 10 years and 100K miles out of them
Its also possible to trash them in under 10K or a year

I jack up till the font wheel is just off the ground

grab the wheel at the 3 and 9 o'clock push with one hand and pull with other push then swap while looking at the rear Bush with a torch


also put a pry bar near the rear Bush and lift it up a few millimeters. Should take quite a bit of force. Unfortunately unless you have tried a new one its hard to explain how much force is acceptable. But both sides should be the same. I one has gone it will be very noticeable

because of the arc it travels through a small amount of play here is exaggerate at the hub and can make the rear axle look out on a laser alignment.

 

[DaveMcT]

The hub spindle and brake mountings are on one forging which bolts to the axle. It's easy to rule out steering calibration by pulling the power steering fuse. Doing this on my car made zero difference so I spend a couple of hours fitting shims. They are easy to put back to original but the problem is solved so I've left them in place.
My car was pulling left, so I set left rear to toe out and the right to toe-in by the same amount.

 

[koalar]

The hub spindle and brake mountings are on one forging which bolts to the axle. It's easy to rule out steering calibration by pulling the power steering fuse. Doing this on my car made zero difference so I spend a couple of hours fitting shims. They are easy to put back to original but the problem is solved so I've left them in place.
My car was pulling left, so I set left rear to toe out and the right to toe-in by the same amount.

The majority of Pandas will either pull to the left or right slightly if you pull the power steering fuse and proves nothing

Especially if the toe out slightly which is still in tolerance plus or minus 1 mm. Obviously we are not talking violent pulling to the side

there isn't enough castor to self centre properly. This is done electrically

the panda has 2 degree and 30 seconds dead ahead (Castor)

Gone are the days cars had around 5 degrees and you could take your hands off the wheel and the steering snapped back


If the front suspension is worn or damaged on one side allowing one wheel to trail the other it will still drag the rear around but will wear a rear tyre out

most wheel alignment centres will not know if its the front throwing the back out or the back throwing the front out


As I said the only reason to shim a rear would be to fix a damaged axle or cassis. Even then it would be better to fix it properly the axle has of 6 mm total tolerance in toe and slightly more in camber


my 2010 1.2 has been jacked under the centre of the axle in it past. The axle has at least half an inch bow in it but doesn't effect the tyre wear

 

[koalar]

before any alignment is done its important

there has to be no wear in the suspension or steering

wheels not buckled (although it does depend on the system)

tyres properly inflated

no damaged or bent components

suspension settled

I have watched them align cars at a centre with a viewing window

they had a High through put of cars on their fancy computer screens.

none had any of the above done first

no doubt several went out worse than they went in.