Technical JTD115 - suspect turbo - any ideas?

[davidthelodge]

Thx again 4 the replies, car was, & maybe still is overboosting in the 3000+ rpm rev range. Not tried injector cleaner. Air filter recenty changed, but not fuel filter, car shows no signs of fuel starvation. Can't open the Alfaowner link.

The tuning place said the other day they did not in fact adjust the turbo actuator rod, although they told me originally 3 weeks ago it was "being re-set". If the rod has been adjusted B4 I purchased the car this could be reason for the problems. Three turbo companies have now told me this should never be adjusted and should stay at the Garratt factory setting. Garrett told me the turbo a/rod is very unlikley to be able to be accurately re-set, even off the car, if the setting has been altered. I think it has by the look of the tippex on top of the round turbo actuator.

Not had chance to do any 40-80 mph timed runs, or clean out induction system, or disconnect MAF. To me the car feels fine, but I have never driven another 1.9JTD 115 multiwagon. I'm going to do a post about turbo actuator rods, Thx David

 

[davidthelodge]

JTD115 turbo & actuator rod. Innotec turbo clean?

Anyone had a need to adjust their turbo actuator rod ? I think for some reason mines been adjusted slightly B4 I brought the car as the actuator top face has tippex markings on it and the car's down on power @ 3000+ rpm . (I can only tell due to having an accurate R/road power print out done pre a re-mapp, which of coruse can't now be done).

If its not the above then maybe my turbo's full of carbon. Anyone used Innotec cleaner ? (maybe to prevent "turbo overboosting" which is normally accompanied by the engine fault light being triggered when accelerating hard on the motorway after cruising. I have also had this in the past). Thx David

 

[Shadeyman]

Re: JTD115 turbo & actuator rod. Innotec turbo clean?

"Tippex markings" could mean second hand part. Lots of breakers mark up their parts that way?

I read somewhere that the small switch on the brake(or was it the clutch?) can cause this sort of problem. The ECU thinks the brake is being applied and cuts the fuel if the switch is faulty or not adjusted properly, might be worth a look.

 

[Argonought]

I've merged this thread back as it's best to keep everything in context - and hopefully get an answer for you.

You'll get folk asking same questions again otherwise

 

[sussexa]

vnt adjustment definatly not recommended!
but have a read up on here
scroll down to post #7 for vnt settings
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=206363&highlight=vnt+setting
bare in mind its vag related but very similar vacuum vnt activation.

 

[davidthelodge]

Thx sussexa, Argo & others. Well its unlikely to be the MAF as the Fiat dealer says they removed mine and fitted a new one - result no change what so ever, so they refitted mine back on, I assume this was B4 they found the kinked vac pipe coming off the new overboost valve. I also asked them to confirm they drove the car in the 3000-4500 rpm range on the 7 mile test run when they had Examiner (Fiat fault finding computer connected). They say they are 95% certain they did (no data was kept) all just shown on their lap top screen and they said it was all OK.

Now the other thing I really dont understand is what ever the Fiat dealer did it changed the problem, from an overboost power dip and then recovery (see week 1) to now the tailing off of power shown on the other graph I posted. If it was the turbo or the actuator rod then what they have done surely should not change the fault in anyway.

 

[Argonought]

Something really weird is happening around 3000rpm

Thinking of that kink in the overboost tubing - I suppose there's no chance the pipe is actually collapsing with the vacuum at any point is there :chin:

Vacuum starts at the vacuum reservoir (back of engine near manifold) and is fed to turbo actuator with the VGT valve sitting in the middle controlling the boost. Any leaks (even if small) will cause an issue.

You could try feeding the vacuum directly to the turbo (with no control from VGT valve) although I'm not sure of the result. I think someone has tried it and you may find it mentioned in one of the links I fed you.

 

[Hydrocw49]

When I had VGT problems earlier this year (slightly different symptoms - sod all power, lots of smoke and then take off like a rocket!!) I wasnt able to bypass the VGT but as I was able to borrow a vacuum tester one evening we did have a very successful road test with the vacuum tester connected directly to the turbo actuator. This restored power throughout the rev range and confirmed a VGT fault.
I wouldnt recommend running for too long with a constant vacuum on the turbo, since at low rpm it will be effectively overboosting (Fiat ECUscan confirmed on mine) but its worth trying just to confirm you have a good VGT.

Another thought, has the EGR valve been cleaned recently? Its possible that its blocked with carbon/leaking and dumping the turbo boost straight into the exhaust. If it hasnt been cleaned, would be worth investigating - but its a pig to work on! personally I'd try one of the specialist spray cleaners before removing the EGR

Dont give up, once its running properly, you'll be surprised by how well a diesel stilo will go. Instead of a re-map why not just add one of the tuning boxes (not the cheap resistor type ones from Ebay) I've got a Kingquick Classic on mine, which gives a very healthy 140ps, 300Nm and a bonus of an extra 4 or 5 mpg

 

[sussexa]

if i were you i would post a plea for anyone near you who could get it scanned with software like fiatecuscan(here and on yanis site)(see sticky at top of main stilo section).you would be looking at 8 data logs, so maybe 2 or 3 runs should log all important things.looking for the likes of requested boost against actual boost, maf airflow requested and actual, fuel rail pressure requested and actual, vnt% opening, rpm.with this data you have more idea whats really going on as something should change drasticaly at around 3000.

 

[Argonought]

if i were you i would post a plea for anyone near you who could get it scanned with software like fiatecuscan(here and on yanis site)(see sticky at top of main stilo section).you would be looking at 8 data logs, so maybe 2 or 3 runs should log all important things.looking for the likes of requested boost against actual boost, maf airflow requested and actual, fuel rail pressure requested and actual, vnt% opening, rpm.with this data you have more idea whats really going on as something should change drasticaly at around 3000.

Thing is, if you've read this thread, you'll see he's already taken it to a Fiat dealer with Examiner connected out on a run (presumably paid for the privilege too ) and that should have shown something amiss.

Personally, if used properly I can't see how it could fail to provide some clues.

 

[sussexa]

thats my point, once the data is up on here there could be an infinate number of people looking at it,instead of just the tech who took it out for the run and couldnt see anything wrong.
recently ran mine on fes and noticed instantly i may potentially have issues even though no faults thrown up and a quick look at data or graphs may look normal,but if you look closer things can be seen.
dont want to dis techs in dealers but mine went in 3 times under warranty for swirl valve faults,4th time looked into it myself and found a bolt rattling round on inlet manifold that would if unlucky jam under swirl valve actuator.bolt picked out no problem since.

 

[davidthelodge]

Current performance figures on a flat road, driver only, 1/4 tank of fuel are:

40-80 in 3rd 13.1 secs
40-80 in 4th 16.1 secs

Anyone know what they should be for a 115JTD multiwagon (53 plate, 66K miles).

 

[Shadeyman]

Current performance figures on a flat road, driver only, 1/4 tank of fuel are:

40-80 in 3rd 13.1 secs
40-80 in 4th 16.1 secs

Anyone know what they should be for a 115JTD multiwagon (53 plate, 66K miles).

I just fitted a Tuning Box to our Multiwagon. Its only set to level 4 but it would be interesting to see how the two cars compare.
80Mph in 3rd. (Not sure the missus will allow that. lol)
I'll post the results soon as I get chance to try it.

 

[Argonought]

Very interesting figures:

5 door with full fuel load (standard map)
40-80 3rd = 10 secs
40-80 4th = 15 secs

At the lower revs I'd say you're not too far out but using the higher revs (hitting the red line in 3rd) then there's quite a noticeable fall off in performance.

At the very least this does confirm something is not right.

 

[Shadeyman]

Are you any closer to finding out why the power drops off at 3000+ yet?

A friends Stilo JTD 5 door feels like its doing the same thing.

 

[Argonought]

Are you any closer to finding out why the power drops off at 3000+ yet?

A friends Stilo JTD 5 door feels like its doing the same thing.

I'd be very surprised if David's issue turns out to be remotely common :chin:

All other issues with the JTD have been covered at length so just try out that old Search tool

 

[davidthelodge]

I am going to get the Turbo Innotec cleaned in about 10 days time. Meanwhile I will put out an appeal for anyone nearby who has the downloaded the software on the skicky, fiat-ecu-scan

 

[davidthelodge]

2 turbo specialists told me today innotec is no good for cleaning VNT turbo's as when its sprayed in via the input & exhaust output it simply can't reach the VNT mechnism. I explained there was a probe/tube to spray it with, but they still say this innoctec is only good for turbos with a proper waste gate, (that's not what innotec seem to suggest on their web site), they say good for variable vane turbo cleaning, is VNT the same as variable vane, I dont know ? All I know is VNT = Variable Nozzel turbo. All very confusing ! Help please

 

[Shadeyman]

Hello again dave.

A friend of mine has an Alfa 156(similar turbo to ours) and he used this stuff with very noticable results, perhaps you could give it a try? :idea:

Website.
http://www.ecotekplc.com/PowerBoost.htm

PDF.
http://www.ecotekplc.com/PDF's/AKposterPB1.pdf

Video Demo.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPu29cgHU3g"]YouTube - Ecotek Powerboost[/nomedia]



Good luck. UK purchase.
http://www.dcp-shop.co.uk/buy-car-accessories/product_info.php?products_id=6119
http://www.rtecshop.com/?p=product_view&product_id=297

 

[ABZSTILO]

I've not tried the ecotek spray myself on a JTD (I have used on something else to good effect) but a chap I know recently used it on what appeared to be a pretty tired and smoky VW TDI Passat with over 130k on the original turbo. He got what he described as 'very pleasing results', it seems quite a lot fresher. The result I've seen on his car following it down the road is next to no smoke under 'load'.
Now that I have a slightly smoky JTD (lays a nice smoke screen a destroyer from WW2 would be proud of at full 'chat') which is essentially not worth very much and has done over 90K miles in my ownership (coming up on 101k) I might give it a whirl myself and see what results I get.

Whats the worst that could happen

However I've discussed potentially tired turbos and turbo 'cleaning' products with a couple of folk up here in Inverness and the general consensus is the same - worth a try and it may yield some short term benefits, but the only way to truly clean it out is a rebuild. But I guess we all knew that anyway