Tuning JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

[_Dejan_]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

Im receive answer from Peter that kit is on hold untill the 1.9JTD situation is solved and he know it has nothing to do with the induction, but are not prepared to risk until he find solution for issue....

 

[minimad99]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

Im receive answer from Peter that kit is on hold untill the 1.9JTD situation is solved and he know it has nothing to do with the induction, but are not prepared to risk until he find solution for issue....

If he knows that, perhaps he'd like to offer his opinion on what is the problem......... the map itself? or some other engine component that doesn't like the Reddot Map?

 

[STILO NEWBIE]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

I'd love to see you post up your power curve

Be very surprised if you're holding peak BHP much over 4k rpm. What's the point in holding a gear if you're dropping BHP all the time (and that's without considering the mechanical risks you're taking)

well, car never been on roller and now been sold, so havent got the print out.
But you are right, by the time it get over 4.5rpm, it hasnt has much left anyway, so it never bother me and never get it fix as I dont do 100mph on 4th and 130+ on 5th everyday.
Only try it to see whatever it been fix itself, which never happen~~~:devil:

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

If he knows that, perhaps he'd like to offer his opinion on what is the problem......... the map itself? or some other engine component that doesn't like the Reddot Map?

Peter is keeping an eye on this thread I'm sure - there may be something to follow from our discussions

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

@ABZSTILO: Im not looking for this picture because I have it... Im thinking about picture inside of Induction kit... On this picture look like that MAF is about 5-10cm nearer engine...
As someone said maybe Induction kit do not produce right air circulation and MAF report wrong values to ECU....

Ooops - missed that post. Sorry dejan, at the moment the induction is staying on the car. Partly as it's p*ssing down with rain and I don't have a garage and partly becuase as I have hands like shovels getting in there to get the kit off is a pain in the rectum

However, it may be coming off next week so I may take some pics that will suit you then The other piccie was posted to show the MAF location rather than anything else

 

[Muppet1]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

Hey Abzstilo,

How comes you might be taking it off. If you do take it off how abouts sending it down here and i could put it on my unmapped stilo to see what happens.
Might help solve the problems or might not.

Who Knows.

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

It would only be coming off so that I can play with it.... then it's going straight back on

 

[Muppet1]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

Darn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[minimad99]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

bump;
Any updates Abz from your end?

Now this may nothing and complete coincidence but................ last week i cleaned the Maf connector with contact cleaner, i then resited my overboost valve next to the battery as it had never been done, i used the original piping as all seemed fine.

On the OB valve there is a small gauze/mesh underneath a plastic cap. This i think is the vulnerable part to water. With the cap removed (just held on with small push clips) i cleaned this mesh just with paper towel, didn't fancy squirting anything on it in case i made it worse, LOL. It was a bit dirty but nothing major ( any ideas how to clean it more thoroughly greatly accepted).
The blue OB valve connector was more caked in crap than anything else after being in the wheelarch for 6 years and over 100K miles.

Since refitting everything back together i have had no engine fault light other than once on the first drive but since then nothing and i've been really trying to get it to it. I have only covered appox 100 miles as i've been off work on holiday hence all this sudden work with wishbones, track rod ends and those Reddot rear discs.

As i said it may be coincidence but i used to get the fault daily on any 50mph+ road when pushing on.

Comments?

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

I am waiting for a different map sensor to arrive which may be part of a solution :worship:
I also had a new overboost valve and pipework fitted recently (it has been relocated to the battery tray since the FIAT 'recall') to see if that would cure the issues but, alas, it was not to be.

I can only say that at the moment the culprits seem most likely to be:

1. The MAF.
2. The remap itself.

The problem remains intermitent, if it were constant then a solution would probably be more forthcoming I'm unconvinced that the induction is the sole cause of the problem, although it would be daft not to consider it as a plausible part of the dilemma

Until the replacement map sensor arrives, I'm stumped for things to try

 

[Argonought]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

My experience is that the OB valve very rarely goes faulty - certainly a lot less than the MAF sensor (that said, my MAF is still original on a car coming up to 6 years old).

Nice to have it all clean and gleaming up by the battery though

Abz, I'm surprised you're still pursuing the MAF sensor to resolve your problem. As I've already posted, I simply fail to see how it can possibly work the way its been mounted into the GSR kit.

The MAF can only work correctly as a compete sensor (i.e as it comes supplied). Once it's been removed from it's mount and then placed into a different mount (on GSR induction) then what it reports back to the ECU is more or less garbage

From what I can gather - had the GSR induction tube been mounted in place of the airbox and attached to the end of the MAF sensor with the two mounting bolts then everything would be fine :chin:

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

The MAF can only work correctly as a compete sensor (i.e as it comes supplied). Once it's been removed from it's mount and then placed into a different mount (on GSR induction) then what it reports back to the ECU is more or less garbage

I hear what you're saying, but although I share some suspicions about the diamater of the GSR induction (which is actually reduced on the JTD Stilo comapred to say the GSR kit for a JTD Punto) at the end of the day the orientation of the MAF to airflow is important, where it is located less so. It's not as if it's sending a signal across the OE mounting it simply responds to conditions.
It can perform it's function equally well in the GSR kit - although I do consider it to a plausible part of the problem I'm afraid I do not consider it to be the definative answer.

From what I can gather - had the GSR induction tube been mounted in place of the airbox and attached to the end of the MAF sensor with the two mounting bolts then everything would be fine :chin:

With a few modifications something quite similar to that might be going on my car to prove a point - just a question of waiting for bits

 

[minimad99]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

Now this may nothing and complete coincidence but................ last week i cleaned the Maf connector with contact cleaner, i then resited my overboost valve next to the battery as it had never been done, i used the original piping as all seemed fine.

Since refitting everything back together i have had no engine fault light other than once on the first drive but since then nothing and i've been really trying to get it to it. I have only covered appox 100 miles as i've been off work on holiday hence all this sudden work with wishbones, track rod ends and those Reddot rear discs.

Well, so much for that theory, two faults today but higher up the rev range. Nowhere as common as normal and the engine is pulling much better than before.
Back to the drawing board:bang:

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

Sadly I have to report that after a week of no faults the dreaded engine fault light and 'ping' came back with a vengance in 3rd 4th & 5th gears this weekend past with some brisk-ish motoring on country roads

I'm going to remove the MAF from the induction kit and blank that off again more 'robustly' than previously and see if it makes a difference like last time. Somehow I doubt it.... but one must live in hope:worship:

Sooner rather than later this will fall out of the realm of the amateur and onto a professional to sort out :chin:

 

[Argonought]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

I hear what you're saying, but although I share some suspicions about the diamater of the GSR induction (which is actually reduced on the JTD Stilo comapred to say the GSR kit for a JTD Punto) at the end of the day the orientation of the MAF to airflow is important, where it is located less so. It's not as if it's sending a signal across the OE mounting it simply responds to conditions.

Quite so Abz You could put the MAF sensor on the roof or in the boot (with the right tubing) and it would still read correctly - you'd just have crap induction .

However, removing the MAF from it's factory designed housing is bound to have quite significant effect. The error will be proportional to the square of the difference in diameter of the respective housing. Obviously this assumes the sensor is orientated correctly with respect to the air-flow.

For example if the tubing is 41% larger (than size of factory housing) then this will produce a factor of 2 error. In other words, twice as much air is entering the turbo as the MAF is reporting to the ECU.

What happens now is the puzzle?

You'd expect the ECU to mark the MAF as defective, resort to default values and store an error code. Your tests suggest it doesn't do this :chin:

If it accepts the readings from the MAF then I'd expect a very lean mixture to be produced together with boost errors (remember it would be compressing a lot more air than it thinks it is). Once, again your tests seem to indicate that no errors are stored which I find very puzzling :chin: I suppose the ECU might make an 'on-the-fly' correction to mixture settings using the MAP sensor (remember this is reading the correct pressure within the manifold) but this is pure speculation.

The biggest puzzle to me is how you can generate an engine fault and yet an error code is never stored

 

[a1ant]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

ABZ, looking at this form a slightly different angle, what sort of boost is your running with the remap?

(and any others with the same problem also running a remap)

Alan

 

[johnson550]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

Quite so Abz You could put the MAF sensor on the roof or in the boot (with the right tubing) and it would still read correctly - you'd just have crap induction .

However, removing the MAF from it's factory designed housing is bound to have quite significant effect. The error will be proportional to the square of the difference in diameter of the respective housing. Obviously this assumes the sensor is orientated correctly with respect to the air-flow.

For example if the tubing is 41% larger (than size of factory housing) then this will produce a factor of 2 error. In other words, twice as much air is entering the turbo as the MAF is reporting to the ECU.

What happens now is the puzzle?

You'd expect the ECU to mark the MAF as defective, resort to default values and store an error code. Your tests suggest it doesn't do this :chin:

If it accepts the readings from the MAF then I'd expect a very lean mixture to be produced together with boost errors (remember it would be compressing a lot more air than it thinks it is). Once, again your tests seem to indicate that no errors are stored which I find very puzzling :chin: I suppose the ECU might make an 'on-the-fly' correction to mixture settings using the MAP sensor (remember this is reading the correct pressure within the manifold) but this is pure speculation.

The biggest puzzle to me is how you can generate an engine fault and yet an error code is never stored

I have a tuning chip not exactly the same setup as what youre talking about but just looking at your last two lines I thought until I got it right thats what I had. Theres a little screw to adjust on this chip and I was to turn it a tiny amount at a time until either the engine fault light came on or there was too much black smoke which ever came first then turn it back a smidgen do you like that word its very technical term for tiny amount. I know theres a lot of people against these chips for various reasons but the bloke who sells them is about half a mile from me and he has one on his Astra Sport Hatch which is only 9 months old been on since he got it. The point being if he is that confident it wont do any damage to his car then it cant do much harm to my 2001 Marea. I dont think this proves anything but thought it was worth a mention

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

ABZ, looking at this form a slightly different angle, what sort of boost is your running with the remap?

(and any others with the same problem also running a remap)

Alan

Greetings Alan - To answer your question honestly I have not got the foggiest idea exactly how much boost the old girl is running Emails to Red Dot about the remap perameters go unanswered, but I must find the time to call them and try and get some answers

To answer some other points made in the thread I'm loathe to cut up the induction kit to prove a point about the MAF housing diameter (although I'm wavering) but it could very well go that way soon It's possible that a hybrid set-up will be going on the car providing my supplier of bits of induction kits gets my pms

The car has now generated the original error code again

I am still waiting for the replacement/uprated map sensor to arrive :shrug:

The fuel pressure intrigues me, I'd like to know what it's doing although my suspicion is that it's not a factor in this instance.

Confused - you bet I am :bang:

 

[Argonought]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

I am still waiting for the replacement/uprated map sensor to arrive :shrug:

This sounds expensive Is this a different sensor than original then as thought you'd only just replaced it and had it checked on Examiner

As a matter of interest Abz, have you had a chance to measure internal diameter of the MAF sensor housing and compared it to the internal diameter of the GSR tubing (at the point where the sensor is inserted). It's not clear from your photo if the GSR kit is the same diameter throughout?

 

[ABZSTILO]

re: JTD - GSR induction & Red-Dot remaps!

This sounds expensive Is this a different sensor than original then as thought you'd only just replaced it and had it checked on Examiner

No, the MAF has been replaced and examined on diagnostics but the map sensor is the original. It's possible that the map sensor can't cope with the additional boost offered by the remap so an alternate, which should cope with higher boost may be part of the answer. Wont know for sure until it gets here though.

As a matter of interest Abz, have you had a chance to measure internal diameter of the MAF sensor housing and compared it to the internal diameter of the GSR tubing (at the point where the sensor is inserted). It's not clear from your photo if the GSR kit is the same diameter throughout?

The GSR kit does indeed narrow before the MAF location and again to the turbo but I haven't measured the internal diameters - yet. I'd hazard a guess that there's not too much in it but until I take it off and look/measure it's conjecture on my part.