General Ice and Panda's dont mix.

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General Ice and Panda's dont mix.

Road craft is all about observation, appropriate speed and keeping the car balanced (y)(y)

I've not done IAM but the motorbike tuition is heavilly biased to these factors and taught me a lot (along with subsequent road riding experience).
 
About 40 posts with people reffering to you as 'he' yet you choose mine?

Seems you didn't know how to drive a car with ESP. It's ok, I'm sure with practice you'll learn to control the car correctly.

Didn't see the previous ones or didn't realise they were referring to me. Whatever.

The best way to drive a car with ESP is to switch it off, simple really.
 
Halleluyah - the most accurate post yet in this hijacked thread.

Road craft is all about observation, appropriate speed and keeping the car balanced (y)(y)

Drifting round corners on opposite lock is not road craft - some might call it car control, others might call it showboating.

Dave - so glad the car is bad and sorted for you. Just hope no-one else has a similar incident as the server will explode.

Erm it's not just about drifting which is car control incidentally in case you were wondering. The point of driving on track and what you learn from it, is how to control a car once you are in the slip angle as that is the quickest way through the corner, ie a 4 wheel drift (which definately isn't showboating). If you never exceed the limits of grip you don't learn car control.
 
Got it back! (y)

Full service and 4 wheel alignment on top of the repair.

3 pages of work done :eek:

Feels tighter than a camels backside in a sandstorm! (y)

Glad to have it back and hand the Punto back
.

Time for some high revving hand brake power drifting round bends now :p
 
The point of driving on track and what you learn from it, is how to control a car once you are in the slip angle as that is the quickest way through the corner, ie a 4 wheel drift (which definately isn't showboating).

Is it really the quickest way through a corner though?....You don't really see any drifting in motorsport series such as Touring Cars etc.... :confused:
 
Is it really the quickest way through a corner though?....You don't really see any drifting in motorsport series such as Touring Cars etc.... :confused:

A 4 wheel drift is very different from hanging the rear end out with an armful of opposite lock.

A 4 wheel drift is getting the steering wheel straight before the apex so you can get on teh power and the car drifts out to the exit of the corner, so it's about getting on the power earlier. You do see it in motorsport but it's reasonably subtle so you'd have to look hard.

I must admit when I was racing MR2s which lets face it don't have loads of power it was all about momentum so you'd carry as much speed into the corner as possible then deal with the oversteer by trying to balance the car through the corner and through the exit. Must admit with road tyres that over-heated after about 5 laps there was plenty of sideways action amongst the front runners. Not a 4 wheel drift as such, but it was the quickest way to get round in that type of car on those tyres.
 
Is it really the quickest way through a corner though?....You don't really see any drifting in motorsport series such as Touring Cars etc.... :confused:

They do a little, but they mostly get around corners by leaning onto the car next to them... perhaps we should do that on the roads too? :D

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F1 cars have had ABS/ESP/Traction Control banned because it helps the drivers too much. Hardly dangerous.
 
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F1 cars have had ABS/ESP/Traction Control banned because it helps the drivers too much. Hardly dangerous.

But where is the challenge in that? Best thing they did was get rid of traction control. That's what your right foot is for.

I would also think that the systems used on an F1 car are very far removed from whatever is on a road car. So I don't think it's a relevant point.

Also you will always be quicker with the ESP/traction control off. I haved proved this in the RX8 I used to race. First thing to do when getting in the car was turn off all the driver 'aids'.

There is a very good reason why I bought an imported integra R over a UK one. Imported one has no ABS. (y) It has no ESP, no ABS, no traction control. That's how I like it. (y)
 
But where is the challenge in that? Best thing they did was get rid of traction control. That's what your right foot is for.

Ah so motorsport is all about making it challenging for the drivers rather than being the quickest! (y)


I would also think that the systems used on an F1 car are very far removed from whatever is on a road car. So I don't think it's a relevant point.

Hmmm....I don't get why it's not a relevant point....:confused:

You stated that 4-wheel drifting was 'the quickest way through a corner'....Surely if it was then F1 cars would do it....?
 
Oh come on!!!!

My GTR has about 380hp. It has Attessa,(Puts up to 50% of Torque thru front wheels), HICAS, (Steers rear wheels first out of then into a corner), It has a G meter which infinitley measures the forces acting on the car, and will steer, brake and apply front-rear torque accordingly. I think it's described as the most technologically advanced production car on the planet.

Of course due to this none ever get damaged or even spin, (NOT). So, you see, Driver aids are literally that, aids.

In F1, traction control was banned years ago because the cars were so advanced, it was almost as though the driver was along for the ride, the car was doing it all. For instance, Ayrton Sennas Mclaren, in the early 90's, was capable of having it's map altered several times through one corner, remotely!!!! This meant they could realise maximum torque and HP at any given rev anywhere on the circuit. The car was just too clever.

We all own little Fiat Panda's, which cost less than one cars tyres for one F1 Race, so what is all this banter about.

I'm taking every single driver aid off my Panda. IMHO it simply doesn't need any of it!!

There is only one way Dave could have avoided breaking his car when he did, and that would have been by being somewhere else. Driver aids or no driver aids.
 
Oh come on!!!!

My GTR has about 380hp. It has Attessa,(Puts up to 50% of Torque thru front wheels), HICAS, (Steers rear wheels first out of then into a corner), It has a G meter which infinitley measures the forces acting on the car, and will steer, brake and apply front-rear torque accordingly. I think it's described as the most technologically advanced production car on the planet.

A panda with ESP has a G meter which measures the forces acting on the car, and the direction of steering and will brake and regulate power accordingly. Other than rear wheel steering and the 4wd diff there isn't a lot of difference between the systems.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing track racing into this - ESP for road cars is a driver aid. Makes the car safer providing the driver doesn't believe they're the greatest driver since Ayrton Senna, and go and cock it up.
 
We all own little Fiat Panda's, which cost less than one cars tyres for one F1 Race, so what is all this banter about.

I think it's about what it's always about....Going off on a tangent and then arguing about it! :D

I don't think anyone ever said ESP could have saved Dave's 100hp, but to say nobody ever needs ESP (and that most people can't drive!) is bound to provoke an argument! :eek:
 
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