I potentially scuffed someone's car - after advice...

[eeeno]

Obviously the guy is crazy enough to ask for money even without the proof. I think the workplace can take action against him, like issue a warning or something.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Obviously the guy is crazy enough to ask for money even without the proof. I think the workplace can take action against him, like issue a warning or something.

They really can't.

Yours, an experienced HR professional.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

And what was his reply to this ?


I have a feeling now you've opened Pandora's box and he's going to come after you for more money.

Do you really have peace of mind if you've paid him £60 and he's wanting more ?

A couple weeks down the road and he keeps putting on the pressure for more and more money are you going to keep paying it for 'Peace of mind?'

if it did end up in the hands of the insurance then you have now fully admitted liability where there was no reason to believe you were liable.

There should have been no discussion

"as far as I am aware I have not made contact with your car, plenty of cars will have come and gone through the course of the day before I came along and there is absolutely no marks or damage on my car that corresponds with yours, Sorry you feel I hit your car but it was not me!"

That would have been more than adequate to resolve things. You work in the same building presumably for the same company, it would be idiotic for him to then take revenge as the motive would be obvious.

I would go as far to say that what you have agreed is really stupid!

I might be wrong he might take his £60 and bugger off but given this

I think you've massively shot yourself in the foot.

Do you have any advice for the OP now you've written a detailed exposition of what he shouldn't have done?

 

[Sausage]

I would love to see the "repair" they are going to effect for 60 quid.

Wouldn't even get chips away to your door nevermind anything at a proper body shop.

While not going as strong as Andy's language paying him anything could be seen as an admission of fault.

Ok, excuse my ignorance/naivety, let's say I pay him the £60 cash.... how could he prove to an insurer that I have paid him that money - they'd be no evidence unless he's got some hidden bodycam on. And how would the following even look to an insurer - the guy happily admitting to taking £60 off me and then wanting to make an insurance claim on top. I am still open to telling him that he ain't getting the £60 as I cannot be sure I caused the damage, and that all the advice I have been given has been explicitly not to pay anything as there is no clear evidence that it was me. My colleagues and manager have my back which is reassuring. My manager doesn't like the guy that is accusing me at all, he hates the dude.

If anyone can expand on why paying him £60 could cause me problems further down the line - then please let me know what concerns I should have.

If I do go ahead with the payment and he asks for more money then I'd tell him he's lucky to be getting £60 and that he can take it or leave it. Based on how he was with me face-to-face I think he will actually just take the £60 and leave me alone. He said I was 'being reasonable with him'.

I blocked his number after sending my last message to him, I can't deal with the guy as he is making this more complicated than it needs to be. Like I said - I want this out of sight and out of mind, and not having texts saying 'phone me so we can arrange when to talk'. I said he can come and see me at work - that's all he needs to do.

 

[AndyRKett]

Do you have any advice for the OP now you've written a detailed exposition of what he shouldn't have done?

Lots of advice from many people who’d posted above, that was ignored.

Looks like he’s paid the hangman now so may have to just accept the “peace of mind” they paying off an extortionist brings

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Lots of advice from many people who’d posted above, that was ignored.

Looks like he’s paid the hangman now so may have to just accept the “peace of mind” they paying off an extortionist brings

Hangman extortionist, really?

OP, sensible approach. Of course if your goodwill wasn't respected then that'd be a different matter, but I think that it will go away now.

 

[StevenRB45]

Ok, excuse my ignorance/naivety, let's say I pay him the £60 cash.... how could he prove to an insurer that I have paid him that money - they'd be no evidence unless he's got some hidden bodycam on. And how would the following even look to an insurer - the guy happily admitting to taking £60 off me and then wanting to make an insurance claim on top. I am still open to telling him that he ain't getting the £60 as I cannot be sure I caused the damage, and that all the advice I have been given has been explicitly not to pay anything as there is no clear evidence that it was me. My colleagues and manager have my back which is reassuring. My manager doesn't like the guy that is accusing me at all, he hates the dude.

If anyone can expand on why paying him £60 could cause me problems further down the line - then please let me know what concerns I should have.

If I do go ahead with the payment and he asks for more money then I'd tell him he's lucky to be getting £60 and that he can take it or leave it. Based on how he was with me face-to-face I think he will actually just take the £60 and leave me alone. He said I was 'being reasonable with him'.

I blocked his number after sending my last message to him, I can't deal with the guy as he is making this more complicated than it needs to be. Like I said - I want this out of sight and out of mind, and not having texts saying 'phone me so we can arrange when to talk'. I said he can come and see me at work - that's all he needs to do.

If there's any way of tracking it back to you then the fact you've paid him would be seen as an admission you accepted fault.

Simple as that, if he's then talking about bringing in 3rd parties to talk to you as well...well the more people involved the more text messages back and forth the more likely it becomes it could be linked back to you.

So given he seems to be an absolute arse...make sure you don't refer to the money or what it's for in any text message etc.

However this also leaves you open to him turning round and saying "what money?"..

It's not a great situation all around... hopefully he'll be ok.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Making a goodwill gesture, as OP is doing is not an admission of liability.

 

[StevenRB45]

Making a goodwill gesture, as OP is doing is not an admission of liability.

Paying to repair a car you've not damaged after having met with a third party from a body shop stretches plausible deniability somewhat in terms of "Goodwill".

 

[AndyRKett]

Ok, excuse my ignorance/naivety, let's say I pay him the £60 cash.... how could he prove to an insurer that I have paid him that money

OK so you posted the below ..

I messaged him back telling him how there is no clear evidence I hit his car, not even any paint transfer to each other's cars, and mentioned the fact that he starts work 5 hours before me and there are 60+ people arriving to work before I even arrive to work, anyone could have parked there or attempted to park there before I arrived. Without directly saying so, I was essentially telling him that he's lucky to get £60 out of me. He can come and get the £60 - take it or leave it. My insurance company wouldn't pay him a penny as there is no CCTV evidence, I am not going to admit fault to my insurer, there is no photo evidence of my car parked touching his, there are no witnesses.

Now without knowing word for word what you said, he clearly now has messages from you stating that you entered into some sort of dialog, Also you by all accounts seem to have told everyone in the office that you have agreed to pay him some money, so there are other parties beside you and him who know the details.

Also if he went through the insurance and your insurance company said "did you agree to pay him £60 for the damage" given you're even entertaining the idea of paying out to someone who has zero proof and you do not believe yourself that you damaged his car. I don't get the impression you're the sort of person who would barefaced lie to your own insurance company.

And how would the following even look to an insurer - the guy happily admitting to taking £60 off me and then wanting to make an insurance claim on top. I am still open to telling him that he ain't getting the £60 as I cannot be sure I caused the damage, and that all the advice I have been given has been explicitly not to pay anything as there is no clear evidence that it was me.

Other party goes to his insurance company states you offered to repair to pay for all the damage, gave you £60 then ghosted you for the rest of what the repair is going to cost. so now he's having to go through the insurance company to get the car repaired properly, you'd be surprised how often people offer to pay for the damages in an accident only to change their mind once they find out the real cost. You'd look like the bad guy.

If anyone can expand on why paying him £60 could cause me problems further down the line - then please let me know what concerns I should have.

If the situation does play out as above, if he does speak to his guy who tells him its going to cost a few hundred quid and you refuse to pay it, so he puts in a claim and the information gets back to your insurance company that you offered to pay him off. This could cause your insurer to cancel your insurance, as it could be see as you trying to hide an accident from them.

If I do go ahead with the payment and he asks for more money then I'd tell him he's lucky to be getting £60 and that he can take it or leave it. Based on how he was with me face-to-face I think he will actually just take the £60 and leave me alone. He said I was 'being reasonable with him'.

Now I'm kinda with you on this point, i'd hope that he pisses off and doesn't come back, but these days with people having cars on lease plans and PCP plans any minor damage could be very costly for them further down the road when they want to change or return the car. So he actually genuinely may want to get it repaired to avoid massive fees being due later down the road.

Somewhere in your insurance policy Ts and Cs it will state that you must inform them about this incident.

Paying to repair a car you've not damaged after having met with a third party from a body shop stretches plausible deniability somewhat in terms of "Goodwill".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1000000% this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

you don't make a goodwill gesture to repair someone's car if you don't accept at least some liability yourself.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

@StevenRB45
OP isn't meeting with any third party as far as I can see. OP made what is clearly a goodwill gesture to a fellow employee in line with what was requested and agreed. If the other party doesn't now want to accept then the OP has made it clear that the other party has provided no evidence that it was caused either at the time alleged, or that he caused it and he would make no further offer.

I don't think he has boxed himself in in any way, he sounds like a decent individual trying, as he says, to move on and avoid any issues in work.

 

[AndyRKett]

@StevenRB45
OP isn't meeting with any third party as far as I can see. OP made what is clearly a goodwill gesture to a fellow employee in line with what was requested and agreed. If the other party doesn't now want to accept then the OP has made it clear that the other party has provided no evidence that it was caused either at the time alleged, or that he caused it and he would make no further offer.

I don't think he has boxed himself in in any way, he sounds like a decent individual trying, as he says, to move on and avoid any issues in work.

Person A accuses Person B of damaging their property. Person B agrees to pay person A and amount in reparation for the damage caused. The very nature of saying it is a Goodwill gesture is to say that there is some liability on part of Person B that has compelled them to make such a gesture.

At this stages it seems that Person A hasn't fully agreed to the amount offered and is seeking advice on the possible full cost of repair.
But Person B has made an opening offer in negotiation of the repair, a willingness to pay for the damages.......and in doing so admitted liability.


If I ran someone over in the street, stopped and said sorry old chap hear have £50 as a sign of "goodwill" I am acknowledging that I ran him over and that I feel that some financial compensation is owed, my "goodwill" amount may be way short of the actual damages suffered, but that doesn't mean he can't sue me for the full amount of damages and loses using that £50 as an admission of liability

 

[Bonefish Blues]

@AndyK

Person A accuses Person B of damaging their property. Person B agrees to pay person A and amount in reparation for the damage caused. The very nature of saying it is a Goodwill gesture is to say that there is some liability on part of Person B that has compelled them to make such a gesture.

At this stages it seems that Person A hasn't fully agreed to the amount offered and is seeking advice on the possible full cost of repair.
But Person B has made an opening offer in negotiation of the repair, a willingness to pay for the damages.......and in doing so admitted liability.

No it doesn't. I can't say it more simply than that.
Goodwill offers and payments are made every day of the week without admission of liability. The OP has made an offer after discussing it with the other party.
The OP has explained his motivation very clearly here and to colleagues.
if now the other party is not accepting of that, then they will have to take it forward by other means, but they will need to provide evidence, which they cannot.

 

[Sausage]

Lots of advice from many people who’d posted above, that was ignored.

Looks like he’s paid the hangman now so may have to just accept the “peace of mind” they paying off an extortionist brings

You haven't even explained why paying the £60 and therefore 'admission of guilt' matters. As far as I am aware - it's irrelevant, as I have not stated that I'd give him any money in any digital communication with him. All my texts to him have stated that there is not enough evidence to determine I caused the damage.

If he wants to tell an insurer that I paid him some cash and therefore 'admitted guilt', then that's going to be another 'he said - she said' situation. The same situation as him claiming I pranged his car and me denying it. There will be no evidence. Do you really think I'd tell an insurer I paid him some money.

and yes, Bonefish, it's pretty much exactly that - it's a goodwill gesture, I don't know if I hit him... but there is a chance it could have been me and I am trusting this guy isn't having me on. If this person wasn't a colleague and this accusation happened in a Tesco car park - I wouldn't give a stranger anything. It's because this person is a colleague that I am appeasing the guy.

That said - I haven't given him any cash yet and could easily change my mind.

 

[AndyRKett]

No it doesn't. I can't say it more simply than that.
Goodwill offers and payments are made every day of the week without admission of liability. The OP has made an offer after discussing it with the other party.
The OP has explained his motivation very clearly here and to colleagues.
if now the other party is not accepting of that, then they will have to take it forward by other means, but they will need to provide evidence, which they cannot.

A payment of goodwill can be made in a business transaction, normally there would be some written agreement or contract that Person B (as per my example above) is willing to make a payment of goodwill and without prejudice in the amount of ..... but you see that needs some sort of written contract, and depending on the situation does not absolve person B of all liability. But it may mean in a business setting that both parties walk a way a little out of pocket but not as bad as they would if the solicitors got involved. When they write this up in their contract it will say something like "without prejudice" on the contract that both parties sign and agree to.


In this instance there is no business between the two parties so no reasonable explanation for the OP to be making a "goodwill" gesture, unless they believe that they did hit the other party's car, in which case that offer of payment is not seen as "goodwill" its seen as an admission of liability.
It seems currently the OP has offered to pay £60 towards the repair of the car.
The other party however does not seem convinced that this is sufficient to repair the car, and therefore it doesn't appear any agreement has been made.


To an insurance company it could look like the OP is bullying the other person into accepting the £60 "take it or leave it" and that he is admitting that he did damage the other persons car.

He has also repeatedly stated that he is not sure if he damaged it or not. If the other party said he did and the OP says he didn't then the onus is on the other party to prove he did damage..
But the OP keeps saying he is not sure if he did damage it or not. Therefore the Onus is no longer on the other party to prove he did. The other party said he did. and the OP can't say he didn't, he's offered to pay, basically he has accepted full liability for the cost of any repairs.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

A payment of goodwill can be made in a business transaction, normally there would be some written agreement or contract that Person B (as per my example above) is willing to make a payment of goodwill and without prejudice in the amount of ..... but you see that needs some sort of written contract, and depending on the situation does not absolve person B of all liability. But it may mean in a business setting that both parties walk a way a little out of pocket but not as bad as they would if the solicitors got involved. When they write this up in their contract it will say something like "without prejudice" on the contract that both parties sign and agree to.


In this instance there is no business between the two parties so no reasonable explanation for the OP to be making a "goodwill" gesture, unless they believe that they did hit the other party's car, in which case that offer of payment is not seen as "goodwill" its seen as an admission of liability.
It seems currently the OP has offered to pay £60 towards the repair of the car.
The other party however does not seem convinced that this is sufficient to repair the car, and therefore it doesn't appear any agreement has been made.


To an insurance company it could look like the OP is bullying the other person into accepting the £60 "take it or leave it" and that he is admitting that he did damage the other persons car.

He has also repeatedly stated that he is not sure if he damaged it or not. If the other party said he did and the OP says he didn't then the onus is on the other party to prove he did damage..
But the OP keeps saying he is not sure if he did damage it or not. Therefore the Onus is no longer on the other party to prove he did. The other party said he did. and the OP can't say he didn't, he's offered to pay, basically he has accepted full liability for the cost of any repairs.

You're wrong. A goodwill gesture may be made in any walk of life.

This is not a quasi-judicial or commercial instance, it's two employees from the same company and will be viewed in that light. It's a minor bit of damage. The OP is trying to be a decent individual and taking the other party at his word* without any evidence. He has throughout maintained that whilst there's a possibility he may have caused it, he felt nothing and no evidence has been produced by the other party. He has made no admission of liability.

*That's why he has made the offer.

 

[Sausage]

If there's any way of tracking it back to you then the fact you've paid him would be seen as an admission you accepted fault.

Simple as that, if he's then talking about bringing in 3rd parties to talk to you as well...well the more people involved the more text messages back and forth the more likely it becomes it could be linked back to you.

So given he seems to be an absolute arse...make sure you don't refer to the money or what it's for in any text message etc.

However this also leaves you open to him turning round and saying "what money?"..

It's not a great situation all around... hopefully he'll be ok.

Thanks for your input.

Yeah, so as long as I don't mention it in texts, phone calls, or send a digital transfer of money - then it's fine.

I don't think he'll get me to talk to his mobile bodywork geezer. I am not interested in talking to anyone about the situation anymore.

I don't believe he would take £60 and then claim on insurance too. He won't get anywhere with insurance anyway as I am not going to admit any guilt. The evidence is non-existent for both me damaging his vehicle and for me handing over cash.

 

[AndyRKett]

You haven't even explained why paying the £60 and therefore 'admission of guilt' matters. As far as I am aware - it's irrelevant, as I have not stated that I'd give him any money in any digital communication with him. All my texts to him have stated that there is not enough evidence to determine I caused the damage.

Things do not have to be written down in order to be used.

As I pointed out above if he now finds out the full cost of repairing his car is going to be in the hundreds and he has proof that you have met with him, that there are a whole host of other people who know you offered him £60

When your insurance company comes to you and says "DID YOU OFFER HIM £60" are you going to completely lie and tell them you didn't?
What if some other person in your office having heard of this agreement is happy to go on the record and say you did..... because you did, you can't deny that on here now.

You offered him money to repair his car. is as you say "All my texts to him have stated that there is not enough evidence to determine I caused the damage." then why would you offer to or give him any money???

If he wants to tell an insurer that I paid him some cash and therefore 'admitted guilt', then that's going to be another 'he said - she said' situation. The same situation as him claiming I pranged his car and me denying it. There will be no evidence. Do you really think I'd tell an insurer I paid him some money.

All he needs to do is say this guy hit my car, paid me £60 and then ghosted me when he found out it was going to be £XXXX amount. Then his insurance company talks to your insurance company. Your insurance company might ask you that question "Did you pay (or offer to pay) him money for the damages" your insurance company are likely to take that as you having admitted liability, they are not going to fight on your behalf and they will just pay out to him.

And potentially cancel your insurance for invalidating the terms of the agreement.

I don't know if I hit him... but there is a chance it could have been me and I am trusting this guy isn't having me on.

Even stating that you "don't know" if you hit him, puts you in a weaker place than saying you definitely did not hit him.

Take everything you have written in your text messages and go with that, There is no evidence, no damage to your car, no exchange of paint on his. His car was parked there for several hours before you parked there so there could have been other possibly numerous cars that came and went. There is Zero reason for you to be making any offer to pay towards the damages on his car unless you did damage his car, therefore any offer or payment is an admission of guilt.

That said - I haven't given him any cash yet and could easily change my mind.

Change your mind and do so quickly. Perhaps tell him you spoke to your car insurance legal team and they said that there was no reason for you to pay him anything and to not speak with him any more, if he wants to take it up he can do so though his insurance company. But state very clearly that you did not hit his car and there is no damage on your car to suggest you did.

He would have to pay whatever his excess so if he has a £500 excess he'd have to pay the first £500 before his insurance would pay a penny.

I would also make it clear that any damage or vandalism towards your car would be linked with a clear motive to this incident and reported to the police and company management, and that management have already been made aware of the accusations made.

 

[Sausage]

@AndyK

No it doesn't. I can't say it more simply than that.
Goodwill offers and payments are made every day of the week without admission of liability. The OP has made an offer after discussing it with the other party.
The OP has explained his motivation very clearly here and to colleagues.
if now the other party is not accepting of that, then they will have to take it forward by other means, but they will need to provide evidence, which they cannot.

When he comes for the money - I might even say to him....

'I don't know what happened to your car, I cannot know if this was caused by myself or someone else, but if you are absolutely confident that I damaged your car then take this money off me. If you aren't absolutely confident that I did it, then I don't think you should take this money off me'.

This way it's clearly just a gesture and it's up to him to take the money or not. Also, it may stop him taking the money and save me £60.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

The one area I'm in agreement with @AndyRKett is that you need to be completely consistent in terms of what you have said and done. Do not on any account change your story.

As to insurance cancellation, then that's simply not going to happen for either party. Please stop being alarmist. The scenario is completely understandable. OP doesn't even know there was an incident, and is simply being a decent human being and taking another employee at their word. Now if there's a claim, I'm sure he will report it promptly once that's made clear to him.