General Hill starts/handbrake use with fiat 500 semi-auto

[Lyddo]

Hi, just looking for a bit of advice please!

I've just got my first car, a 2020 semi-auto lounge, having passed my test a month ago. I had my lessons in a fully automatic VW so I'm looking for some advice to adjust to my new car. My main issue is hills/inclines... the car I learnt in had hill start so I only ever used the handbrake when parking, not while actively on the roads. My 500 has hill holder (I think!) but only if the hill is severe, I haven't been able to test it fully (only had it 2 weeks) but I think the hill holder has engaged once or twice. I'm terrified of rolling back into someone if I'm on an incline and they're right close behind me and the hill holder doesn't kick in.

My question mainly is what is the proper procedure for using the handbrake in these situations. Please be kind! I know I should know this but it was never required in my lessons, I thought all automatics were the same and I don't actually know anyone else who drives auto. Should it be handbrake on > press accelerator > handbrake off or handbrake on > handbrake off > press accelerator? I've been doing the latter but sometimes there is a small roll back which I'm trying to avoid.

I was also taught to not use my left foot, only right foot between brake and accelerator, however I'm thinking I could use both feet maybe to reduce the gap between releasing the brake pedal and hitting the accelerator, thus preventing any rolling back. Is this what other people usually do? I never had any lessons in a manual so I see a lot of comments saying the semi-auto is similar to a manual clutch/transmission however this doesn't mean much to me! Any advice would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[jrkitching]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I can understand why you're having trouble with this. With a dualogic transmission, pulling away on an incline has more in common with driving a manual car than driving an automatic.

With a conventional manual transmission, you hold the car on the handbrake, progressively releasing it as you feed in power. If done properly, the car should not roll back at all. Misjudge this, and you'll either roll back, or put excessive strain on the clutch. A lot of folks struggle to master this when first learning to drive in a car with manual transmission (and some never seem to get the hang of it!).

A dualogic should be driven the same way, except that you don't have to manually adjust the clutch pedal pressure to feed in the clutch progressively as the car pulls away - the dualogic feeds the clutch in automatically as the revs rise. You just have to control progressively releasing the handbrake.

You might consider taking a lesson or two in a manual car specifically to practice pulling away on an incline. Alternatively, you might ask your previous driving instructor to come out with you in your own car.

Driving a dualogic isn't quite the same as driving either a manual or a conventional automatic, and requires a specific technique. If more folks realised this, and took the time to learn the correct procedure, we might see fewer problems with these transmissions.

Also mastering a dualogic is likely significantly harder for folks who've never mastered driving a manual car.

@portland_bill is our resident expert on matters appertaining to driving instruction, and may have something to add?

As an aside, I used to drive a Lanchester with a preselector gearbox; this is the opposite of a dualogic in that it has a conventional autobox with a torque converter, but gear selection and shifting are both manual. They're three pedal cars, with a gear selector on the column, and a gear change pedal where the clutch would be on a conventional car. You first select the gear you want, but nothing happens until you quickly press and release the gearchange pedal, whereupon the transmission moves into whatever gear you've selected. You stop the car in gear, and they creep just like a conventional auto.

It's either amusing or terrifying to watch someone not familiar with these cars try to drive one; which of the two depends on whether you own the car or not! Using the third pedal as you would use a clutch would soon ruin the transmission, and if you used too many revs the immediate full engagement of the transmission could put you straight into a wall.

I always insisted on driving mine during an MOT unless certain the tester was well versed in the peculiarities of the car.

 

[steveras57]

Agree with the above! best method id say is THINK MANUAL and keep the handbrake on so NO possibility of rolling back then feed in the power until you"feel" or even "sense " the drive start to" pick up" then release the handbrake to allow drive and motion! sounds easy but i appreciate the issues if you have not driven a manual car and therefore agree that perhaps a couple of lessons in a manual so you "get the feel of it" could be benificial to you! so in your terms its handbrake on/give it some throttle(easy does it!)/ feel the take up/ handbrake off! sure you will soon get the hang of it! I find sometimes helps to visualise the process mentally!- like a video game walkthrough! its kinda like a mental practice so your brain learns the procedure without actually doing it physically! best of luck be sure to let us know how you get on! enjoy your driving journey!

 

[AndyRKett]

When stopped on the hill, hand brake on. Foot off the brakes, apply some power to the engine, with your hand on the handbrake button pushed in, when you feel the car trying to pull forward start to gently release the handbrake down, once down fully move your hand back up to the steering wheel.

@portland_bill is our resident driving instructor who may also have some tips he could add to the conversation.

 

[steveras57]

When stopped on the hill, hand brake on. Foot off the brakes, apply some power to the engine, with your hand on the handbrake button pushed in, when you feel the car trying to pull forward start to gently release the handbrake down, once down fully move your hand back up to the steering wheel.

@portland_bill is our resident driving instructor who may also have some tips he could add to the conversation.

Nice by the book description there! good point is that the handbrake is NOT an on/off switch! holding the button in allows you the "feel" i was talking about as the power is taken up! with practice you will soon be able to balance the power coming in and the handbrake being released gradually at the same time! like any skill it takes time and practice to become familiar and comfortable with the process! have no doubt that you will soon be doing it on an almost sub-concious level!- 2nd nature as they say!.

 

[Lyddo]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I can understand why you're having trouble with this. With a dualogic transmission, pulling away on an incline has more in common with driving a manual car than driving an automatic.

With a conventional manual transmission, you hold the car on the handbrake, progressively releasing it as you feed in power. If done properly, the car should not roll back at all. Misjudge this, and you'll either roll back, or put excessive strain on the clutch. A lot of folks struggle to master this when first learning to drive in a car with manual transmission (and some never seem to get the hang of it!).

A dualogic should be driven the same way, except that you don't have to manually adjust the clutch pedal pressure to feed in the clutch progressively as the car pulls away - the dualogic feeds the clutch in automatically as the revs rise. You just have to control progressively releasing the handbrake.

You might consider taking a lesson or two in a manual car specifically to practice pulling away on an incline. Alternatively, you might ask your previous driving instructor to come out with you in your own car.

Driving a dualogic isn't quite the same as driving either a manual or a conventional automatic, and requires a specific technique. If more folks realised this, and took the time to learn the correct procedure, we might see fewer problems with these transmissions.

Also mastering a dualogic is likely significantly harder for folks who've never mastered driving a manual car.

@portland_bill is our resident expert on matters appertaining to driving instruction, and may have something to add?

As an aside, I used to drive a Lanchester with a preselector gearbox; this is the opposite of a dualogic in that it has a conventional autobox with a torque converter, but gear selection and shifting are both manual. They're three pedal cars, with a gear selector on the column, and a gear change pedal where the clutch would be on a conventional car. You first select the gear you want, but nothing happens until you quickly press and release the gearchange pedal, whereupon the transmission moves into whatever gear you've selected. You stop the car in gear, and they creep just like a conventional auto.

It's either amusing or terrifying to watch someone not familiar with these cars try to drive one; which of the two depends on whether you own the car or not! Using the third pedal as you would use a clutch would soon ruin the transmission, and if you used too many revs the immediate full engagement of the transmission could put you straight into a wall.

I always insisted on driving mine during an MOT unless certain the tester was well versed in the peculiarities of the car.

Thank you very much for your response and advice, and I'm glad to hear that it isn't unusual for automatic drivers to struggle with this car! I'll definitely consider a few manual lessons if I can't adjust to the dualogic soon.

 

[Lyddo]

Nice by the book description there! good point is that the handbrake is NOT an on/off switch! holding the button in allows you the "feel" i was talking about as the power is taken up! with practice you will soon be able to balance the power coming in and the handbrake being released gradually at the same time! like any skill it takes time and practice to become familiar and comfortable with the process! have no doubt that you will soon be doing it on an almost sub-concious level!- 2nd nature as they say!.

Thanks for your comments, very helpful! I didn't realise I could use the handbrake in this way to get a feel for when the car is ready to move. My normal reaction when in these situations is to try to do everything really fast to avoid rolling but now I know how I should be using the handbrake properly I think I can get the hang of it! Thanks again!

 

[Lyddo]

When stopped on the hill, hand brake on. Foot off the brakes, apply some power to the engine, with your hand on the handbrake button pushed in, when you feel the car trying to pull forward start to gently release the handbrake down, once down fully move your hand back up to the steering wheel.

@portland_bill is our resident driving instructor who may also have some tips he could add to the conversation.

Thank you for the clear instruction, very helpful. Looking forward to trying this and getting the hang of it. Other than this issue I really like driving the car so your help in resolving is really appreciated!

 

[steveras57]

As long as you gain confidence and feel safer then we will be happy!, and its worth it! we all had to learn once now didnt we!? to easy to forget that!

 

[portland_bill]

The technique described above is good for this type of gearbox.
The 'hill hold' function should do this for you, but these can be unreliable. In any vehicle, the hill hold only holds for a couple of seconds after footbrake release, so if you are slow to add power, it can roll back. The handbrake is under your control. If the hill hold function on the 500 is simlar to that in my Doblo, it is best not to trust it, as mine appears random.
The more you use the handbrake, the better it works.

 

[varesecrazy]

@Lyddo

Glad you are figuring it out,

the 500's are great small cars

 

[steveras57]

Yep for sure!- trouble is great can be defined in so many ways!
Great FUN!
Great entertainment!
Great enjoyment!
also
Great FRUSTRATION!
Great worry!
AND Great EXPENSENSE
Certainly NOT Great handling or Great reliability!!
Character I guess!? keeps us coming back for more! ( your not going to beat me you Ba**t*rd!)
can you imagine how relaxed /bored ( stand by for retaliation! )we would all, be if we was driving Japanese cars!

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

can you imagine how relaxed /bored ( stand by for retaliation! )we would all, be if we was driving Japanese cars!

Yep, after no less than fifty years owning and driving Mazda's I finally switched. The main reason was that while bulletproof reliable the current line-up of models have become so bloody boring you might as well drive a Toyota! The other reason was that there are no two-door options, unless you buy an MX-5. I've never owned a four-door car (or an auto!) and have no reason to start now.

 

[steveras57]

well with the weather you guys get im surprised they still bother to fit a roof!

 

[jrkitching]

Gotta do something to keep them spiders & snakes out!

And leaving a car parked out for many days of 35C+ sun brings about its own, different, set of issues.

The clearcoat delamination on >10yr old red ones is bad enough in the UK climate.

 

[steveras57]

mongoose in the glove box!

 

[steveras57]

if it dont rain and theres no salt why bother laquering them in the first place

 

[jrkitching]

if it dont rain and theres no salt why bother laquering them in the first place

The lacquer provides UV protection; one reason it's there is to reduce the risk of colour fade.

And it works! Modern red cars don't fade anywhere near as badly as the older ones do.

Problem is, the UV degrades the lacquer instead.

Applying a good LSP with decent UV protection certainly helps, but you need to start when the car is new, and keeping up the regime for the lifetime of the car is tough.

 

[steveras57]

so instead of a dull car you get a scabby one! and dont buy a red one!

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

well with the weather you guys get im surprised they still bother to fit a roof!

Yeah, never rains;

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AlsunkJfjieliCu6BxOyQAMLprL6?e=CpdnFy

bit it pours...

so instead of a dull car you get a scabby one! and dont buy a red one!

A black car is asking for trouble too - I swore I'd never buy another black car, and what did I come home with...?