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Panda (Classic) Hal, the turquoise Selecta: Once more unto the breach, dear friends!

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Introduction

Named after [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_V_of_England"]King Henry V[/ame] (Prince Hal, for those, like me, who are Shakespeare addicts...) -- not the computer in Kubrick's masterpiece, 2001: A Space Odyssey -- Hal (see the number plate...), I'm hoping, is the Panda of my dreams. For someone who said he wasn't going to buy any Pandas, this year -- but I would buy either a Selecta or a 4x4, next year... -- I'm doing pretty well.... :D

No new photos, beyond those in this how-on-earth-did-I-end-up-with-a-third-Panda thread: as there's nothing new to show, really; and I was too tired to take photos of the engine bay... -- so apologies for the disappointment. Hal does feature a full complement of tools, under/around the spare, though, I can reveal; as well as a stonking new battery; and a very slow oil leak (possibly from the rocker cover...). :eek:



As you'll have seen from the Auction Watch thread, I had to catch a couple of trains to get to Hal; followed by a gentle walk through the suburbs of Birmingham (where Hal seems to have spent all of his life...). The guy selling the car then took me to the Post Office to get a new tax disc, and to the local factors, to get the battery. (What a star...!) He even wanted to make sure that all the fluid levels, etc. were okay, before I set off...! :worship:

It comes with most of its old MOTs -- showing the following mileage progression...
  1. 08/1996: 10,970
  2. 09/1997: 14,397
  3. 09/2001: 24,965
  4. 09/2002: 27,252
  5. 01/2004: 27,584
  6. 01/2005: 34,693
  7. 01/2006: 42,205
  8. 01/2007: 48,929
  9. 01/2008: 55,391
  10. 01/2009: 60,597
  11. 01/2010: 65,560
  12. 01/2011: 70,107
  13. 01/2012: 75,179
  14. 09/2013: 78,084
...so it's been in pretty constant use; but nothing too strenuous! :)

It also comes with two copies of the Owner Handbook -- as did Pippin -- both identical: neither mentioning either the 1108 cc engine* I'm fairly convinced it has (see below); nor the injection light, on the dash (that does work... -- also see below...). :confused:



Anyhoo: never having driven a Selecta in anger, before, I have the following comments:
  1. It's more obviously CVT-based than Priscilla: making a lot more fuss (i.e. piling on the revs) before the actual speed catches up. It does this quite noisily, at the moment (but then quietens down at speed....) -- which I hope will be helped by a new bucketful of gearbox oil... -- but I wouldn't be surprised if the clutch will need replacing soon. We shall see.... :rolleyes:
  2. Frell, it's powerful... (well, as much as a classic Panda can be, without an engine transplant...) -- especially compared to Pippin... -- and it seemed to have even more pep than Pinky: so I'm assuming this is the 1108 cc engine* -- especially as all the plastic stuff under the bonnet is dark blue. I found myself cruising at a measured 75 mph (sorry, officer...) all too easily; and it is very relaxing to drive on the motorway... -- if a little less engaging (if you'll excuse the pun...). :cool:
  3. The injection light came on momentarily, just before the services on the M42, so I left the motorway, intending to stop: only for the light to then go out, as I slowed down. So I went back onto the motorway, keeping to about 65-70 mph; and it never reappeared.... I'm hoping this was just a minor glitch, caused by the fact that it's been parked up for a few months -- but any advice will be gladly taken. Hopefully, whatever the 1993 equivalent of OBD will reveal all (or, even better, nothing...) -- if there is such a thing.... I will investigate.... :idea:
  4. The brakes are also more reassuring than any other Panda's I've driven; and the suspension seems fine (if not as tight as Pippin's all-new stuff...). (y)
I'm therefore hoping that this turns out to be the bargain of the century... -- but we shall let VmanC be the judge of that! :slayer:

Overall, I'm incredibly chuffed. The bodywork, sills, etc., have obviously been fettled at some point; but it feels solid, generally. I just need -- with Vernon's help, probably -- to sort out the aftermarket washer jets; although I think I shall leave the aerial where it is, for the moment. :eek:

Immediate plans include changing the engine and gearbox oils; coolant, air filter, etc.. I shall then, hopefully, give Hal a darned good clean, inside and out; before taking him to Vernon's.... Eventually, I may source a new HU, and add in some front speakers. I'm quite tempted to leave the slight variations in colour (346: Turchese, I believe...) as they are, though: as this will be my go-to Panda (with Betty being for special occasions; and Pippin, obviously, going to the homewardette...) -- and I quite like what I think of as the 'patina of honesty'...! :rolleyes:



Watch this space...! :wave:

* Just found a piece of paper with the engine and chassis numbers -- along with the following text: "1108 cc" and "29-4-93". There you go, Most Easterly Pandas...! (y)
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Why not grab the whole engine & box out of the car in HK Motors Wrexham - known to be working - was on the road until the crash. Solves your problems and gives a spare 1108 engine in one hit !
 
dragonwagon said:
Why not grab the whole engine & box out of the car in HK Motors Wrexham - known to be working - was on the road until the crash. Solves your problems and gives a spare 1108 engine in one hit !
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As tempting as that is, I'd be worried that the gearbox/clutch whatever would also go, eventually -- so, if anything does need replacing on Hal, I'd rather go down the 'new' route. I also don't really want the hassle/cost of having to ship it to VmanC (as I couldn't do the work myself, physically...) -- or lumbering him with it, to break, etc. (unless he actually wanted it for spares...). :eek:

Nice idea, though. Perhaps you could meld it with the Selecta near Blenheim that is also supposedly "in need of a new clutch or gearbox"...!? :devil:
 
Most Easterly Pandas said:
Might be worth removing the brushes to inspect them (y)
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I'm too knackered, tonight, to go Googling with intent, but I wonder if these are still available, too...! :chin:

If so: do you know if they come as an integral part of the "brush holder assembly" (no.7, in the ePER diagram -- part no. 7667610 -- a few posts back...)? :confused:
 
homeward said:
I'm too knackered, tonight, to go Googling with intent, but I wonder if these are still available, too...! :chin:

If so: do you know if they come as an integral part of the "brush holder assembly" (no.7, in the ePER diagram -- part no. 7667610 -- a few posts back...)? :confused:
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Iirc they were discontinued ages ago :(
 
homeward said:
Bizarre, but true: I actually drove Hal, today, around Vernon's yard. Works just fine -- forwards and reverse. I wasn't brave enough, though, to take him for a run through the bucolic pastures of Droxford: just in case I jinxed things.... :eek:

Makes me think that it could be an intermittent fault on the electronic side of things, then (although will still source a spare clutch -- eventually... -- just in case...). Brushes, anyone...? (May get a spare set of those, as well...!) :confused:
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier I do think its probably the electronics since as we saw he drove perfectly earlier. Could be a heat thing too though, once warmed up is when he stopped engaging any gears...

EDIT: Also thanks for the J.D. was nice seeing you today and Hal even if he is a bit worse for wear at the moment.
 
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Didge3 said:
Like I said earlier I do think its probably the electronics since as we saw he drove perfectly earlier. Could be a heat thing too though, once warmed up is when he stopped engaging any gears...
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I think this is a good point.... (y)

To sum up the discussion we had at Vernon's: the journey Hal broke down on began with a cold start; and then a long climb up a steep hill, out of the village where I live. Until then, he'd mostly been driven on the flat, and gentle inclines.... :eek:

Didge3 said:
Also thanks for the J.D. was nice seeing you today and Hal even if he is a bit worse for wear at the moment.
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No problem: just proves that resistance isn't always futile... -- and I think you've done well to avoid the accumulation of Pandas that I seem to have fallen for.... :worship:

Enjoy...! :devil:
 
[SIZE="+1"]Selecta Mechanisms for Dummies: Chapter 23 -- Micro-switches[/SIZE]

I'm not alone
I've just been reading a German Panda forum thread (I so know how to have fun...!) -- you may have to click on to page 1, to begin reading it, though... -- where someone appears to be having the same problem as me and Hal: "Separating the clutch, especially at cold start and high idle speed, sometimes not right. How come?" :eek:

The picture posted there, of the defective clutch, is similar to Most Easterly Pandas' -- in that the powder is obviously leaking (being thrust out of the centre of the clutch body by centrifugal force -- hence the streaks...). In the catalogue link I posted above, they list two different weights of "Powder Clutch Refill Sachets" -- which may be a cheaper way (should they still stock them) -- of repairing the thing (although how you then stop the leak carrying on leaking, I'm not yet sure...). :idea:

How many micro-switches does it take to turn a clutch?
One of the things I found interesting (and I'm very nerdy -- as many of you know -- so I find many bizarre things to be thus fascinating...) was this quote, about the accelerator pedal switches: "the upper one is responsible for starting; the bottom for the increased coupling current." So this would mean that there are two micro-switches... -- and that intermittent 'stickage', or failure, could be the cause of the problem.... :confused:

This post explains (I feel -- with just a little editing...) a little more fully:
When the clutch is to transmit power, it must be magnetized with the aid of an electric voltage. As a result, it aligns the magnetic powder, and can transmit torque. The higher the voltage, the larger the transmissible torque. The voltage, and thus the current flow, is controlled by a control unit in the center console; and also needs to be constantly applied to the power transmission.

For stopping, the magnetic powder clutch must be fully demagnetized. This happens by a vice-turn(?) voltage pulse, just before the stop of the vehicle.

When the clutch is not completely separated, this is usually done by the first micro-switch next to the accelerator pedal, which is always operated.

The actual transmission works perfectly mechanically or hydraulically, and is seen also completely independent of the coupling (control).

PS: You cannot convert torque the clutch, and "engage" it like a conventional clutch -- it (a torque converter(?)) does not exist.​
This explains further:
The clutch works just like a manual. As long as the car rolls on its own, current must flow through the coupling and is used for propulsion. It is therefore not eventually bypassed, as in a torque converter.

If the clutch does not separate properly in this way, the upper micro-switch is at fault, and must be overhauled.​
This page (and the schematic, half-way down) confirms there are two switches. (There's also a putative repair guide for one of them...!) The only available switch -- at the time of writing -- was over €60.... :(

It would help if I could find an English version of this guide, as well, though.... :bang:

Feeling the heat
There's also a discussion (which I found replicated -- thematically, at least -- on an American Nissan forum(!?)) on the effect of temperature -- which would seem to confirm Didge3's suspicions... -- "The warmer the clutch was, the less propulsion had the little car." ["Je wärmer die Kupplung wurde, desto weniger Vortrieb hatte der Kleine." Just beautiful!] :)

How much?!
I love the discussion about price, though! First poster: "You do not want to buy from Fiat, no, you do not want... [Listpreis: €1,902.44]." Second poster: "Somewhere I'll probably have to buy one." Sound familiar...? :eek:

By the way, the clutch weighs 6.5 kg...! (Now I know why the Selecta needs such a huge power plant...!) :rolleyes:
 
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My - you have been busy..!!

this all sounds a right pain,
my ONLY CVT was the Mk1 Uno,
Vacuum controlled - complex ( unreliable) enough,

it was a joint Ford / Fiat venture, the boxes were actually made in France ( (Normandy..??)

the later E- boxes had the Japanese join the fun ,
sounds like that's where the differences start..,

Charlie
 
varesecrazy said:
my ONLY CVT was the Mk1 Uno,
Vacuum controlled - complex ( unreliable) enough,

it was a joint Ford / Fiat venture, the boxes were actually made in France ( (Normandy..??)
Click to expand...

Thanks for this, Charlie... -- although it quashes Palio's hope that the Uno shared Selecta bits with the Panda (made out of unobtainium, as they are...). :eek:

Do you therefore have any further info, or links, that Gavin can have a look at re his Uno...? :confused:

I refuse to give up on the Panda stuff, though... -- and, hopefully, someone I've emailed will get back in touch in the next few days.... :shrug:
 
homeward said:
Anyone know what this is...? Could it be useful...? :confused:
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I don't recognize it at all tbh!

And I've scrapped a Selecta before that was written off and stripped it to the bone!

EDIT: Unless its an internal gearbox part?
 
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Most Easterly Pandas said:
I don't recognize it at all tbh!

And I've scrapped a Selecta before that was written off and stripped it to the bone!
Click to expand...

I'm glad it's not just me, then. Scoured ePER; but couldn't find anything vaguely similar.... (Thought it might be part of the selector, because of the wiring, and the semi-circular metal bracket... -- but the part number got me nowhere....) :spin:

PS: Have emailed the vendor for an explanation...! :)
 
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You really have been busy homeward!!
There is an amazing amount of info in the Haynes about the ECVT box, I was staggered how much info to be honest (though not about getting parts obviously) it had. Lots of wiring diagrams etc for the electronic control unit that's under the centre column.
Here's a photo of the unit itself, I've put it on the Manual (for scale) next to the photo of its location.
 

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Also in the Haynes it shows you all the feeds from the plug to the electronic control unit. You could try cleaning up all the connectors on the plug and the unit itself and see if that gets anymore power to the brushes and powder clutch? Worth a try and free!!

I've just noticed that pin No. 10 says diagnostic socket?
 

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JamieK said:
You really have been busy homeward!!
There is an amazing amount of info in the Haynes about the ECVT box, I was staggered how much info to be honest (though not about getting parts obviously) it had. Lots of wiring diagrams etc for the electronic control unit that's under the centre column.
Here's a photo of the unit itself, I've put it on the Manual (for scale) next to the photo of its location.
Click to expand...

JamieK said:
Also in the Haynes it shows you all the feeds from the plug to the electronic control unit. You could try cleaning up all the connectors on the plug and the unit itself and see if that gets anymore power to the brushes and powder clutch? Worth a try and free!!

I've just noticed that pin No. 10 says diagnostic socket?
Click to expand...

Ooh! That last bit intrigues me! Looks like the one in the Subaru Justy technician's guide I downloaded.... :idea:

Thanks for this! There was a Haynes with the Selecta supplement in the boot, when I bought Hal... -- but must admit that I had ignored it until now. When I get the chance, will peruse it rather thoroughly...! (y)

Although Hal is now in Vernon's capable mitts, I'm hoping to take part in the differential diagnostic (see what I did, there...?!) -- or possible post mortem -- when it takes place: as Selecta knowledge appears to be a bit thin on the ground. :eek:

I still can't make my mind up as to whether I favour clutch disintegration or electrical gremlins -- or even both -- as the cause of Hal's woes; but, if the Haynes is as methodical and thorough as the Subaru manual, then at least we've got a good foundation to start from.... :)

Would be nice to get hold of the kit that plugs into that diagnostic port, though! IIRC, in the Subaru manual, it looks a bit like a chunky 1980s calculator, with a lead coming out of it.... :cool:

Sourcing spares is a challenge; but one I'm kind of enjoying at the moment! :nutter:

However, if it is a wiring issue, then, as with all such things FIAT, tracing, cleaning, and remedying loose connections, rotted or chafed leads, has to be a good place to start.... Thanks again...! :worship:
 
homeward said:
Is this some sort of lead? Am I getting warmer; heading in the right direction...? :confused:

PS: Have just emailed them.... :idea:
Click to expand...

I think this speaks for itself... :(



This was their reply... -- and I must admit to having already checked out a few such specialists (sorry, VmanC), late last night.... :eek:

These were the last prices we had. Where it show “0” we have no stock.

Quite honestly you might be better going to a local transmission rebuilder to see what there cost would be.

I hope this helps.​
I would obviously rather have Vernon do the work, of course -- so this would have to be just a contingency plan, should all else fail.... I am starting to develop a rather deep emotional bond with this car, though: just because I can see Selectas vanishing rather quickly, if this is the sort of hassle owners have to go through.... :cry:
 
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