General Exhaust Issue.

[Adam1984]

Hello what is this problem?

On initial start up and for the first 10 mins driving there is no rattle sound at all, but when stationary this then happens and a lot of white smoke coming from the rear exhaust. And the air filter box also looks like it is shaking a lot too. What are your thoughts?

2015 - Panda Pop 1.2 Petrol. 169A4000 engine.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hello what is this problem?

On initial start up and for the first 10 mins driving there is no rattle sound at all, but when stationary this then happens and a lot of white smoke coming from the rear exhaust. And the air filter box also looks like it is shaking a lot too. What are your thoughts?

2015 - Panda Pop 1.2 Petrol. 169A4000 engine.

I'm afraid you're "afflicted" with the same disease as me Adam, you're obviously a worrier!

Regarding the vapour from your exhaust. Looks like water vapour/steam and is absolutely normal at this time of year and anytime it's cold. Interesting fact: for every gallon of petrol burnt slightly more than a gallon of water is chemically produced due to the combustion process. (which combines hydrogen and oxygen amongst other reactions) This leaves the engine itself as superheated steam - which is invisible - and cools in the exhaust piping into "normal" steam which is visible. It cools and condenses even further as it leaves the end of the exhaust pipe and meets the cold outside air to produce the steam you see here - Of course it does this all the time the engine is running but is much more noticeable when outside air temperature is cold - which is why it's much less evident in summer. The back box and tailpipe never really get hot enough to stop the steam condensing back into water, especially when you're running round town which is why you'll often see water dripping from the car in front when you're in a queue of traffic. If you notice the car in front doing this then watch as it moves off and you'll often see a brief, small, flood of water from the exhaust pipe, considerably more than the drip, as the car accelerates. Out in the country on fast roads or motorways etc you don't see it unless the weather is really Baltic because the gasses are plenteous and moving through the system too fast. Of course the same effect can be seen when water from the cooling system is entering the cylinders - maybe due to a blown head gasket - so regular coolant level checks are advisable and if no drop in coolant level is seen then the steam from the exhaust pipe will be due to the above and nothing to worry about, it's normal.

Air filter shaking? I'd prefer to be actually standing beside the car before definitely saying it looks pretty normal to me, but that's the opinion the video lets me make.

Edit. PS the rattle? again I'd want to be next to it so I could deduce where it's coming from - probably baffle in a silencer box? is it more towards the rear or front or middle or what? Rear boxes are well known to fail first due to the condensation collecting in them.

 

[Adam1984]

I'm afraid you're "afflicted" with the same disease as me Adam, you're obviously a worrier!

Regarding the vapour from your exhaust. Looks like water vapour/steam and is absolutely normal at this time of year and anytime it's cold. Interesting fact: for every gallon of petrol burnt slightly more than a gallon of water is chemically produced due to the combustion process. (which combines hydrogen and oxygen amongst other reactions) This leaves the engine itself as superheated steam - which is invisible - and cools in the exhaust piping into "normal" steam which is visible. It cools and condenses even further as it leaves the end of the exhaust pipe and meets the cold outside air to produce the steam you see here - Of course it does this all the time the engine is running but is much more noticeable when outside air temperature is cold - which is why it's much less evident in summer. The back box and tailpipe never really get hot enough to stop the steam condensing back into water, especially when you're running round town which is why you'll often see water dripping from the car in front when you're in a queue of traffic. If you notice the car in front doing this then watch as it moves off and you'll often see a brief, small, flood of water from the exhaust pipe, considerably more than the drip, as the car accelerates. Out in the country on fast roads or motorways etc you don't see it unless the weather is really Baltic because the gasses are plenteous and moving through the system too fast. Of course the same effect can be seen when water from the cooling system is entering the cylinders - maybe due to a blown head gasket - so regular coolant level checks are advisable and if no drop in coolant level is seen then the steam from the exhaust pipe will be due to the above and nothing to worry about, it's normal.

Air filter shaking? I'd prefer to be actually standing beside the car before definitely saying it looks pretty normal to me, but that's the opinion the video lets me make.

Edit. PS the rattle? again I'd want to be next to it so I could deduce where it's coming from - probably baffle in a silencer box? is it more towards the rear or front or middle or what? Rear boxes are well known to fail first due to the condensation collecting in them.

What would be the symptoms of a rear back box failing?

 

[brokendonkey]

Back boxes fail when they rust, So a big hole and race car sounds, or the internal baffle rusts and snaps off and rattles around inside (more race car sounds), or the wadding if its that type of silencer blows out the tail pipe (usually this goes with a bang and a massive tape worm looking thing hangs out the back)

Tonnes of condensation out of the tailpipe will be common this time of year, if it goes away after 10 minuites you are fine.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm afraid you're "afflicted" with the same disease as me Adam, you're obviously a worrier!

Regarding the vapour from your exhaust. Looks like water vapour/steam and is absolutely normal at this time of year and anytime it's cold. Interesting fact: for every gallon of petrol burnt slightly more than a gallon of water is chemically produced due to the combustion process. (which combines hydrogen and oxygen amongst other reactions) This leaves the engine itself as superheated steam - which is invisible - and cools in the exhaust piping into "normal" steam which is visible. It cools and condenses even further as it leaves the end of the exhaust pipe and meets the cold outside air to produce the steam you see here - Of course it does this all the time the engine is running but is much more noticeable when outside air temperature is cold - which is why it's much less evident in summer. The back box and tailpipe never really get hot enough to stop the steam condensing back into water, especially when you're running round town which is why you'll often see water dripping from the car in front when you're in a queue of traffic. If you notice the car in front doing this then watch as it moves off and you'll often see a brief, small, flood of water from the exhaust pipe, considerably more than the drip, as the car accelerates. Out in the country on fast roads or motorways etc you don't see it unless the weather is really Baltic because the gasses are plenteous and moving through the system too fast. Of course the same effect can be seen when water from the cooling system is entering the cylinders - maybe due to a blown head gasket - so regular coolant level checks are advisable and if no drop in coolant level is seen then the steam from the exhaust pipe will be due to the above and nothing to worry about, it's normal.

Air filter shaking? I'd prefer to be actually standing beside the car before definitely saying it looks pretty normal to me, but that's the opinion the video lets me make.

Edit. PS the rattle? again I'd want to be next to it so I could deduce where it's coming from - probably baffle in a silencer box? is it more towards the rear or front or middle or what? Rear boxes are well known to fail first due to the condensation collecting in them.

By the way, the "steam" from exhaust pipes phenomenon was greatly exacerbated by the adoption of catalytic convertors due to the Cat robbing heat from the gasses as they pass through. I remember when they first became a standard fitment we used to get many customers coming in anxious about the steam coming from their exhausts first thing in the morning because their old, non Catalysed car hadn't done that.

Symptoms of a failing back box? Well, obviously look for external damage and rust causing structural failure (holes in the box mainly). Giving the box a goodly whack with your hand should reveal if there's any loose baffles and look for evidence of glass fibre wool coming out the tail pipe - OOPS just noticed brokendonkey has beaten me to the punch here. Wish I could type faster!

 

[Adam1984]

Back boxes fail when they rust, So a big hole and race car sounds, or the internal baffle rusts and snaps off and rattles around inside (more race car sounds), or the wadding if its that type of silencer blows out the tail pipe (usually this goes with a bang and a massive tape worm looking thing hangs out the back)

Tonnes of condensation out of the tailpipe will be common this time of year, if it goes away after 10 minuites you are fine.

I will monitor the white smoke a little later, so if it's still there after 10 mins then there is something of an issue?

I have also been advised of putting my palm firmly over the exhaust and blocking it to see if any exhaust leaks are happening with hissing sounds etc

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I will monitor the white smoke a little later, so if it's still there after 10 mins then there is something of an issue?

I have also been advised of putting my palm firmly over the exhaust and blocking it to see if any exhaust leaks are happening with hissing sounds etc

Hand over the tail pipe works, but just might blow out a weak box - but it would have been needing renewed soon anyway. If your not loosing coolant don't get too hung up on the white smoke from the exhaust. In really cold weather some will emit this "smoke" nearly all the time - it's a function of how cold the metal of the exhaust system is. Often it will go away while you're driving along but return if you're held up in traffic for a while. Drips from the tailpipe in very cold weather is absolutely normal.

 

[Adam1984]

Hand over the tail pipe works, but just might blow out a weak box - but it would have been needing renewed soon anyway. If your not loosing coolant don't get too hung up on the white smoke from the exhaust. In really cold weather some will emit this "smoke" nearly all the time - it's a function of how cold the metal of the exhaust system is. Often it will go away while you're driving along but return if you're held up in traffic for a while. Drips from the tailpipe in very cold weather is absolutely normal.

What do you mean blow out a weak box? So still try the hand over the exhaust rear pipe? If I get the car running, monitor the white exhaust smoke for 10 mins and if it continues then their is an issue?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

What do you mean blow out a weak box? So still try the hand over the exhaust rear pipe? If I get the car running, monitor the white exhaust smoke for 10 mins and if it continues then their is an issue?

Exhaust pipes, and especially the 'back box' (or silencer you prefer -- the big, fatter section near the back of the car) go rusty over time. The outside rusts as rain and winter salt get to the steel. And the insides rust because exhaust gases contain a lot of water (as steam). Inside the silencer are metal plates to slow the exhaust down, and so, make it quieter. These rust too, and can break away inside the silencer, leading to a rattle.

If the silencer is very rusty, then if you block the end of the exhaust with your hand (or a rag), the pressure that causes inside the exhaust can make a section that has nearly rusted right through 'blow out' -- or break -- like how a balloon bursts if you blow it up too far. The engine has a capacity of 1.2 litres. At idle/tickover, it is turning rond at 800-900 revs per minute. That means that 1.2 litres of air is being sucked in and then pumped out to of the exhaust several dozen times a minute... best not to try and stop that by blocking the exhaust as it will break something!

All cars make steam from the exhaust (looks like white smoke) until teh engine and exhaust are nice and hot. Then, the water vapour is still there, but invisible, and is dry because it's hot. (This is one big reason why cars need all journeys to be more than 10 minutes - to make sure the exhaust is nice and warm and dry)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

And, that movement in the air filter is perfectly normal too. The engine is spinning round 900 times a minute when ticking over like that. That's faster than some washing machines when they are doing the spin - and you know how they can shake about.

The engine is fitted to the car on rubber fixings so it can move a bit, and soak up some of the shaking. The pipe that lets air into the air filter is fixed to the car body, so that end can't move about... but the air filter is attached to the moving engine, so it will need to move too. To allow for that movement, the air filter has flexible rubber mountings -- you can see one very clearly on your video, and it it is working exactly as it should, flexing to allow the air filter to move a bit.

 

[Adam1984]

Exhaust pipes, and especially the 'back box' (or silencer you prefer -- the big, fatter section near the back of the car) go rusty over time. The outside rusts as rain and winter salt get to the steel. And the insides rust because exhaust gases contain a lot of water (as steam). Inside the silencer are metal plates to slow the exhaust down, and so, make it quieter. These rust too, and can break away inside the silencer, leading to a rattle.

If the silencer is very rusty, then if you block the end of the exhaust with your hand (or a rag), the pressure that causes inside the exhaust can make a section that has nearly rusted right through 'blow out' -- or break -- like how a balloon bursts if you blow it up too far. The engine has a capacity of 1.2 litres. At idle/tickover, it is turning rond at 800-900 revs per minute. That means that 1.2 litres of air is being sucked in and then pumped out to of the exhaust several dozen times a minute... best not to try and stop that by blocking the exhaust as it will break something!

All cars make steam from the exhaust (looks like white smoke) until teh engine and exhaust are nice and hot. Then, the water vapour is still there, but invisible, and is dry because it's hot. (This is one big reason why cars need all journeys to be more than 10 minutes - to make sure the exhaust is nice and warm and dry)

Perfect.

So your saying not to block the exhaust for a leak test then? Thank you. So everything looks ok from the videos, just not sure on the rattle. Shall I monitor the white smoke with the car left on idle and see what happens and if it disappears?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Perfect.

So your saying not to block the exhaust for a leak test then? Thank you. So everything looks ok from the videos, just not sure on the rattle. Shall I monitor the white smoke with the car left on idle and see what happens and if it disappears?

Better, take it for a drive to get it warm (sitting idling isn't really very good for cars). And then stop and take a look.

 

[Adam1984]

Better, take it for a drive to get it warm (sitting idling isn't really very good for cars). And then stop and take a look.

These videos were taken after a half hour drive, literally I got home. Left idle for 10 mins with the engine still running and then the noise came and the smoke. So the engine was never turned off. Noise only comes when stationary for 10 mins

 

[Greasytrucker]

Looks and sounds to me like a bit of an exhaust rattle, nothing i’d be majorly concerned about. Airbox movement is normal. If you’ve left it ticking over for 10mins and it’s got a few miles on it then the smoke is probably the valve guide seals letting a bit of oil past, as long as the smoke clears when you set off again I wouldn’t be too worried, as long as you keep your eye on the fluid levels. If you’ve got a serious problem the emissions test will pick it up next MOT anyway

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Sorry folks, Daughter and her "tribe"due to get here this afternoon so Mrs J is press ganging me into fitting bed sheets and duvets, hoovering and dusting. I'd much rather be chatting on here, but I'm far to frightened of Mrs J to refuse her! I'll be back later, maybe.

 

[varesecrazy]

DO check engine fluids now to make sure it's not being driven by a mechanical fault..

Is the cooling fan running ok?

 

[Adam1984]

DO check engine fluids now to make sure it's not being driven by a mechanical fault..

Is the cooling fan running ok?

If I leave the car running at idle, will the fan kick in automatically and can I lift the bonnet to see if it's working?

 

[Greasytrucker]

If I leave the car running at idle, will the fan kick in automatically and can I lift the bonnet to see if it's working?

As soon as it goes much above half way on the temperature gauge it should cut in, you should hear it without needing to lift the bonnet

 

[bugsymike]

Perfect.

So your saying not to block the exhaust for a leak test then? Thank you. So everything looks ok from the videos, just not sure on the rattle. Shall I monitor the white smoke with the car left on idle and see what happens and if it disappears?

If blocking the tail pipe with your hand blows the exhaust box it is because it is on it's last legs any way.
A good exhaust if you put your hand over the tail pipe will stall the engine, if it keeps running there is a serious leak any way.
Many years ago I was stopped by the Police due to a loud noise from the car which they thought was the exhaust, I proved by blocking the tail pipe, that as the engine stopped immediately that there was no exhaust leak.
I told him the noise was the engine was badly worn and due to blow up, he perked up saying isn't that dangereous? thinking he had a possible conviction.
I pointed out there were two fully qualified mechanics in the car and we were not worried, so he gave up.

 

[Adam1984]

If blocking the tail pipe with your hand blows the exhaust box it is because it is on it's last legs any way.
A good exhaust if you put your hand over the tail pipe will stall the engine, if it keeps running there is a serious leak any way.
Many years ago I was stopped by the Police due to a loud noise from the car which they thought was the exhaust, I proved by blocking the tail pipe, that as the engine stopped immediately that there was no exhaust leak.
I told him the noise was the engine was badly worn and due to blow up, he perked up saying isn't that dangereous? thinking he had a possible conviction.
I pointed out there were two fully qualified mechanics in the car and we were not worried, so he gave up.

I don't have a back box looking at my exhaust. I think am supposed to have one. Or am I wrong? What would it mean if I don't have one?