Technical Euro 6 1.2 - VVT & Interference

[jrkitching]

This is the breakdown I got from my local garage using genuine OE parts

Labour £225.00
Cambelt kit £124.19
Water pump £94.33 - special offer at the moment
Aux Belt £23.97
Antifreeze £10.50
Enviro £5.00
Net .............. £482.99
VAT ............. £96.60
Total ............ £579.59

It's those parts prices which are sending this quote through the roof. OEM parts at full list are the main reason why this quote is much higher than some of the ones others are posting about.

If the garage will allow you to supply the parts, you could save quite a bit by purchasing them yourself, and if you are also prepared to buy good quality aftermarket parts instead of OEM, you could save quite a bit more.

Go take a look at the shop4parts website and see what you'd pay for them if you source them directly - and remember members who've donated to the forum get a further discount on their prices. £94.33+VAT is certainly a special price for a water pump when viewed alongside this.

So I'd agree with others who are saying your garage is taking the proverbial. They're hiding the excessive cost in the detail.

 

[Jodsclass]

Recently (6 weeks ago) had the Panda 1.2 VVT cambelt done and the total bill was £420. In that amount was 1 hour doing a cross threaded plug and at least an hour testing the cooling system for leaks so just the belt was around £300. It was charged at £60 an hour and the belt kit including water pump was around £110. Maybe the 500 being more awkward on space would be half an hour more but your quote is more than my main dealer would charge.

Which dealership was that at? I'm trying to get a better price locally, it seems very difficult in my part of Cornwall. But good to know garages still charge a reasonable amount even with today's crazy inflation.

Also, what does anyone make of the service schedule I posted above? My manual says 4 years for cam belt, but the technician's manual at the place I bought it from says 150k Miles or 10 years. I did include the picture from my manual & theirs, which seems vastly different.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

This is the breakdown I got from my local garage using genuine OE parts

Labour £225.00
Cambelt kit £124.19
Water pump £94.33 - special offer at the moment
Aux Belt £23.97
Antifreeze £10.50
Enviro £5.00
Net .............. £482.99
VAT ............. £96.60
Total ............ £579.59

The obvious first question is - what is their hourly rate? Then look here: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=27441 that's a complete and high quality kit including the water pump. They also list a genuine FCA branded kit for only a little more, but there's no point in it as FIAT don't manufacture the original equipment factory fit belts themselves anyway.

Auxiliary belts? same story: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...pts=1100&term=Fiat_500_1.2_8v_Auxiliary_Belts

I'll ask Kenny next time I see him as to what he's currently charging and get back if I manage that soon, pretty sure he'll be at least a "ton" less than you've been quoted and wouldn't be surprised if even a bit less than that.

 

[jrkitching]

Also, what does anyone make of the service schedule I posted above? My manual says 4 years for cam belt, but the technician's manual at the place I bought it from says 150k Miles or 10 years. I did include the picture from my manual & theirs, which seems vastly different.

There's been a lot of confusion regarding recommended belt change intervals over the years. It would seem to me that the manufacturer's handbook which was supplied with the car should be the first point of reference.

In this case, the extract you've posted isn't exactly clear, perhaps explaining some of the confusion. It seems to be saying that the belt should be replaced every six years regardless of mileage, but replaced every four years regardless of mileage if used in dusty or extreme conditions.

Whatever, I don't think anyone is saying that it isn't due for replacement now, and doing so would definitely be the prudent course of action. The outstanding issue as I see it is about whether the selling dealer should bear some or all of the cost of replacement. Given that the manual extract you've posted has a reference to a maximum service life of six years if used in optimal conditions, then technically I'd say they're in the clear if the car was less than six years old when you bought it.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Also, what does anyone make of the service schedule I posted above? My manual says 4 years for cam belt, but the technician's manual at the place I bought it from says 150k Miles or 10 years. I did include the picture from my manual & theirs, which seems vastly different.

The generally accepted interval for the FIRE engines in our older FIRE engines - so our 2010 Panda and my boy's 2012 Punto (which has the VVT engine) for instance, is generally accepted as being 5 years or 70,000 miles (whichever comes first) with the proviso that if operated under arduous conditions and that includes a lot of slow speed, stop start city type operation then the interval should be reduced. Our cars don't do the mileage so get done every 5 years or a bit sooner and seem to thrive on it. Your's is a later model and belt materials are being constantly improved but I'd be wary of going anywhere near a 150k mile interval or 10 years. It would stop me sleeping at night!

Edit. 2017? so now out of any warranty consideration? Time to find a reliable independent workshop I think - preferably specializing in Italian cars.

 

[Jodsclass]

There's been a lot of confusion regarding recommended belt change intervals over the years. It would seem to me that the manufacturer's handbook which was supplied with the car should be the first point of reference.

In this case, the extract you've posted isn't exactly clear, perhaps explaining some of the confusion. It seems to be saying that the belt should be replaced every six years regardless of mileage, but replaced every four years regardless of mileage if used in dusty or extreme conditions.

Whatever, I don't think anyone is saying that it isn't due for replacement now, and doing so would definitely be the prudent course of action. The outstanding issue as I see it is about whether the selling dealer should bear some or all of the cost of replacement. Given that the manual extract you've posted has a reference to a maximum service life of six years if used in optimal conditions, then technically I'd say they're in the clear if the car was less than six years old when you bought it.

The car was first registered in March 2017, and I took delivery in March 2023. So exactly 6 years. It was sold with full service history & a fresh service at purchase. I'm also still within my 90-day warranty, so it’s all very borderline. With it being low mileage, one could argue it has only done urban driving, so should have been done at 4 years. It’s all very annoying.

 

[Jodsclass]

The generally accepted interval for the FIRE engines in our older FIRE engines - so our 2010 Panda and my boy's 2012 Punto for instance, is generally accepted as being 5 years or 70,000 miles (whichever comes first) with the proviso that if operated under arduous conditions and that includes a lot of slow speed, stop start city type operation then the interval should be reduced. Our cars don't do the mileage so get done every 5 years or a bit sooner and seem to thrive on it. Your's is a later model and belt materials are being constantly improved but I'd be wary of going anywhere near a 150k mile interval or 10 years. It would stop me sleeping at night!

Edit. 2017? so now out of any warranty consideration? Time to find a reliable independent workshop I think - preferably specializing in Italian cars.

I'm definitely getting it done if I can find a reasonable price to have the work carried out. I currently can't sleep at night for the same reason. The panda was done every 5 years.

 

[jrkitching]

Our cars don't do the mileage so get done every 5 years or a bit sooner and seem to thrive on it.

If you're doing the work yourself, and you source an aftermarket kit from the likes of shop4parts, then it's a no-brainer.

If you're paying Vospers £798 to do the job, a bit of risk analysis is called for - I can understand not wanting to fork out this much any sooner than is reasonably necessary.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm definitely getting it done if I can find a reasonable price to have the work carried out. I currently can't sleep at night for the same reason. The panda was done every 5 years.

I'd treat it just like you did the Panda I think?

 

[jrkitching]

I'm definitely getting it done if I can find a reasonable price to have the work carried out. I currently can't sleep at night for the same reason. The panda was done every 5 years.

It's easy enough to source decent quality parts for a reasonable price; the hard bit is finding a trustworthy garage to do the work without leaving you with a new problem (remember what I posted previously about the number of folks who've had issues following belt changes).

I'd treat it just like you did the Panda I think?

The VVT engines with no timing marks do seem to give both general purpose garages and DIY types plenty of opportunity to go wrong and get into difficulties. The 60HP Pandas were simple in comparison.

Finding an independent FIAT specialist who's happy to work with parts you've provided is perhaps the compromise that would appease both my peace of mind and my wallet.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If you're doing the work yourself, and you source an aftermarket kit from the likes of shop4parts, then it's a no-brainer.

If you're paying Vospers £798 to do the job, a bit of risk analysis is called for - I can understand not wanting to fork out this much any sooner than is reasonably necessary.

Aye jrk. That price would exercise my mind too!

 

[vexorg]

The gates kit came with the waterpump. and pretty sure it was about £80.

Looking at the belt and rollers on ours, I reckon it would have lasted 10 years. Belt looked perfect and tensioner had no play in. That was changed at just six and a half years and 40k miles.

 

[Jodsclass]

The gates kit came with the waterpump. and pretty sure it was about £80.

Looking at the belt and rollers on ours, I reckon it would have lasted 10 years. Belt looked perfect and tensioner had no play in. That was changed at just six and a half years and 40k miles.

That's good to know. Mine is 6 years and 1 month, but I've no idea if the previous owners had it done. Looking at the belt cover, it has blue paint marks by each bolt. Not sure if that's from manufacture or because someone has changed it. Good to know it’s not likely to fail imminently while I find a better quote.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Which dealership was that at? I'm trying to get a better price locally, it seems very difficult in my part of Cornwall. But good to know garages still charge a reasonable amount even with today's crazy inflation.

Also, what does anyone make of the service schedule I posted above? My manual says 4 years for cam belt, but the technician's manual at the place I bought it from says 150k Miles or 10 years. I did include the picture from my manual & theirs, which seems vastly different.

My dealer is Desira but its in Norwich so not much use for Cornwall. The work was done by a local garage who seem to have done a good job.

 

[Jodsclass]

My dealer is Desira but its in Norwich so not much use for Cornwall. The work was done by a local garage who seem to have done a good job.

Would be great if I could find a good independent down in Cornwall. Here in mid-Cornwall, it just seems to be main dealers & local garages. A lot of the locals have gone bust. When we had Land Rovers, it was always easy to find an indie specialist. If anyone is a self-employed mechanic down here & fancies the job, I'm all ears. Happy to supply parts & copious amounts of tea.

 

[DaveMcT]

My goal garage (Coombe Vale in Teignmouth) is doing ok because they provide good service. Their main mechanic loves Pandas and 500s.

But I do most of the stuff myself. 100HP timing belt was easy enough. 1.2/60 was a doddle.
100HP had the belt done before I bought the car but the waterpump leaked and cam belts dont like coolant so I replaced it last year. The 2007 1.2 cam was done in 2019 because I didn't want my wife left stranded but it looked as good as new. The 1.3 diesel has a cam chain. That had broken at 127,000 miles. The side bed test showed minimal wear but side plates had failed. A couple of valve rockers were broken (as they do) but others are falling apart so I think 100,000 is a fair limit for chain, rockers and lifters.

 

[Jodsclass]

Well, possibly progress on this. Just found another local mechanic online, based a few miles from me & recently relocated from Yorkshire to Cornwall. Quoted me £240 for OEM pump, cam belt, aux belt & coolant all fitted. I can't believe prices are so all over the place.

@DaveMcT that's good to know about the cam belt, how long had it been on at that point? I'm sure the recommended changes are conservative, but I'm always happy to keep up with maintenance to reduce the chance of being stranded on one of our long trips, or worse, on a bloody smart motorway!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well, possibly progress on this. Just found another local mechanic online, based a few miles from me & recently relocated from Yorkshire to Cornwall. Quoted me £240 for OEM pump, cam belt, aux belt & coolant all fitted. I can't believe prices are so all over the place.

@DaveMcT that's good to know about the cam belt, how long had it been on at that point? I'm sure the recommended changes are conservative, but I'm always happy to keep up with maintenance to reduce the chance of being stranded on one of our long trips, or worse, on a bloody smart motorway!

That's definitely a good price, bit his hand off quick, before he changes his mind! Just hope he's not "hiding" down in Cornwall from dissatisfied customers back in Yorkshire? - Only joking?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It's easy enough to source decent quality parts for a reasonable price; the hard bit is finding a trustworthy garage to do the work without leaving you with a new problem (remember what I posted previously about the number of folks who've had issues following belt changes).



The VVT engines with no timing marks do seem to give both general purpose garages and DIY types plenty of opportunity to go wrong and get into difficulties. The 60HP Pandas were simple in comparison.

Finding an independent FIAT specialist who's happy to work with parts you've provided is perhaps the compromise that would appease both my peace of mind and my wallet.

As you'll know, I'm a great one for "letting sleeping dogs lie". So I prefer to do these "keyless" motors - both VVT and solid pulley types - without slackening the cam pulley bolt but do check, both before starting and after fitting the new belt, with the locking tools just to be sure everything has gone as it should. Of course this means removing the cam cover for access to the back end of the cam to fit the locking tool, so a new gasket is needed but as these gaskets tend to leak with age that's probably a good thing to do anyway.

Regarding the engines without timing marks. Our 2010 1.2 Dynamic Eco Panda (60hp) has no timing marks and no keyed cam pulley although it does have a solid pulley (no VVT). Although I'm pretty sure the VVT came in around 2011 on the Panda, (and thanks to you I now know it appeared on the 500 much earlier than that) I've never found out when they started with the "free" - unkeyed - pulley on Pandas. I think the Haynes manual gives the engine number when the changeover happened? but no year. Any idea roughly when it happened?

 

[irc]

As you'll know, I'm a great one for "letting sleeping dogs lie". So I prefer to do these "keyless" motors - both VVT and solid pulley types - without slackening the cam pulley bolt but do check, both before starting and after fitting the new belt, with the locking tools just to be sure everything has gone as it should. Of course this means removing the cam cover for access to the back end of the cam to fit the locking tool, so a new gasket is needed but as these gaskets tend to leak with age that's probably a good thing to do anyway.

Regarding the engines without timing marks. Our 2010 1.2 Dynamic Eco Panda (60hp) has no timing marks and no keyed cam pulley although it does have a solid pulley (no VVT). Although I'm pretty sure the VVT came in around 2011 on the Panda, (and thanks to you I now know it appeared on the 500 much earlier than that) I've never found out when they started with the "free" - unkeyed - pulley on Pandas. I think the Haynes manual gives the engine number when the changeover happened? but no year. Any idea roughly when it happened?

I have an unkeyed late 2005, and an early 2005 with keyed, both original engines.
Of course the keyed one could have hung around for a while before registration, but I suspect it was changed in mid 2005.