Technical EPS electric power steering faults

[koalar]

Are you loosing all power assist or is it just slightly heavy
When you return to stop does the steering go back light

 

[koalar]

been thinking about this.

the power assist is proportional to speed. More assist the slower you go

assuming the steering column is working fine and something is mechanical is binding then as the speed increases the binding will tend to feel worse and will be less evident the slower you drive. In fact at about 50 mph power assist isnt really needed

I suspect the the stiff steering was down to the rack. There pretty tough on the panda and normally only fail after the car been curbed, or in an accident.

need to think of ways to test. Do you have axle stands ? Both wheels off the ground, engine off. Is the steering easy to turn lock to lock.

 

[irc]

First question... why was the original column changed?
Might be irrelevant, but they don't actually fail very often, although they do sometimes get changed out when the real problem(s) are elsewhere...

 

[koalar]

First question... why was the original column changed?
Might be irrelevant, but they don't actually fail very often, although they do sometimes get changed out when the real problem(s) are elsewhere...

500 variable steering | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Hello all, I have an odd issue that I can't get to the bottom of. We have a 2010 lounge and had the power steering motor changed about 4 years ago due to intermittent loss of assistance. Ever since the new motor was fitted the assistance is great when stationary but as soon as you get above...

www.fiatforum.com

sound like it had the "standard" intermittent lose of power assistance and had a replacement column

ever since then power assist is fine at low speed but stiffens up when travelling above a crawl

similar to these two

https://www.astraownersnetwork.co.uk/threads/stiff-steering-above-10mph.371693/

yes I know they are not Fiats but they have the same Delphi column

its a big jump to rack, but it quite logical for it to be a mechanical binding rather than a electrical fault. Be it the replacement column, fitting, rack, ball joint or so on.

can't think of an easy way to test , how easy something spins is subjective. I would jack the front up, with the steering lock off, I would push and pull on the wheel to move it from lock to lock. I have done this many time while working on the car and know what it should feel like. But can't convey in words a feeling.

I had an A Class. Stiff steering is very common on them due to the column universal joint going dry. Had to re-grease mine.

I'm sure the forum collective can get to the bottom of this, Via testing procedures

fiats own tests is pretty comprehensive although some are not simple DIY

H010 STEERING HARD / (STEERING IN BOTH DIRECTIONS) - Fiat - NUOVA 500 - eLearn - 4CarData

 

[irc]

500 variable steering | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Hello all, I have an odd issue that I can't get to the bottom of. We have a 2010 lounge and had the power steering motor changed about 4 years ago due to intermittent loss of assistance. Ever since the new motor was fitted the assistance is great when stationary but as soon as you get above...

www.fiatforum.com

sound like it had the "standard" intermittent lose of power assistance and had a replacement column

ever since the power assist is fine at low speed but stiffens up when travelling above a crawl

similar to these two

https://www.astraownersnetwork.co.uk/threads/stiff-steering-above-10mph.371693/

yes I know they are not Fiats but they have the same Delphi column

its a big jump to rack, but it quite logical for it to be a mechanical binding rather than a electrical fault. Be it the replacement column, fitting, rack, ball joint or so on.

can't think of an easy way to test , how easy something spins is subjective. I would jack the front up, with the steering lock off, I would push and pull on the wheel to move it from lock to lock. I have done this many time while working on the car and know what it should feel like. But can't convey in words a feeling.

I had an A Class. Stiff steering is very common on them due to the column universal joint going dry. Had to re-grease mine.

I may have missed out the word Exactly in my previous question... but I think we may be heading in the same direction.
If the original loss of assistance started after a kerbing or pothole incident, then it's possible the old column change just masked a mechanical problem. Or the mechanical problem stressed the column, causing it to fail.
Stiff steering could emphasise the variable assistance effect.
How long has OP owned it? Much easier to diagnose if one owner from new than "3 careful owners (and 5 bad ones!)". That could reveal a previous incident, or an irregular tyre wear problem.

 

[RFollia]

My wife's early build 169 panda has developed the flickering light for EPS steering. Only happens in cold morning starts. The 1st 3 miles are a constant ticking-clicking but I do not lose power steering.
Alt was rebuilt (all new parts 2 years ago) and battery is new and fully charged.
I guess it's an earth issue.
Did not know about the earthing until I read this post. As probably that earth tab has not been cleaned in 21 years it might be the case. Will report back
Best regards and thank you

 

[DaveMcT]

We had similar symptoms when the alternator was not charging properly. It was doing enough to put the charge light out but not enough to cope with cold starts. Obviously check all earth points as that's easy enough but don't forget to test the alternator. Our 1.2 just faded way. The 1.4 alternator had cracked and was seized solid a week after I removed it from the car.

 

[Luisc]

First don't panic, the vast majority of power steering faults are normally simple and cheap fixes

especially if it starts failing mainly in your winter months

But unfortunately nobody can say change this or do that and it fix it. A lot of different faults will cause the same symptoms or the red light to come on.

These are from both my own experiences and what others have found, thanks everyone that's add to the knowledge base. But I could have easy missed things out. Or have made a mistake

First of the symptoms often tell more about the problem than reading the codes which can be confusing or inconclusive. A lot of advise is just to read the codes, this is what I always did and said until I found out that a low power situation can also throw a torque sensor error (two confirmed cases)

mainly fails only cold mornings, likely battery or earth

or

mainly fails in winter, likely battery or earth

or

on the way to work but not on the way back, likely battery or earth

mainly fails First few minutes of driving, likely battery or earth

mainly fails First few T junctions, likely battery or earth

mainly fails reversing into a parking space, especially as you press the brake, likely battery or earth

mainly fails when at low REVs, likely battery or earth

only fails when going over a bump, loose cable / earth

only fails when the roads are wet loose alternator belt none aircon model's

mainly fails as you slow down from a fast run loose alternator belt none aircon model's

squeal as you accelerate random red light loose alternator belt none aircon model's

totally random Red light steering fine or goes heavy, normally battery or earth

red light on or off steering feels funny in one direction. Faulty torque sensor is likely, thankfully rare

red light on or off random vibration of the steering wheel. faulty torque sensor is likely, thankfully rare

only fails on hard lock in one direction, faulty torque sensor is likely, thankfully rare

steering wheel turns on its own, faulty torque sensor, never seen on the Panda, but have on other delphi EPS

battery substation, this has fixed hundreds of cars, at least 4 cars for me.

its worth mechanically cleaning the battery connectors first, unknow how many this fixes as often just swaping the battery hides the true fix. Both the terminal posts and inside of the connectors need to free from oxides. You can't tell by looking at them. you need to remove a clean clean them mechanical, both inside of the connectors and the lead post. I use a green scouring pad

At least two people on this forum have had the battery tested okay by a garages fancy electronic tester, for the fault to be the battery. Often wasting weeks going round in circles. Also testing with a simple volt meter is a waste of time. I have had a battery with dead cells and measured well under 12V at rest but never failed on the steering.
If someone could come up with a reliable test, life would be so much easier. I have tried with several meters on faulty cars and none have shown any problems with the battery or alternator. Nine time out of ten you are just wasting time and effort.

Only if you have any early 1.1 with cassette play or a none original replacement radio will you need the code for the radio. Everything else (the vast majority) you can disconnect at will as the code is remembered

If you place the battery on charge overnight and it improves is highly likely its on the way out. If its over 5 year its also quite likely

I have two cars. By far the easiest way for me is to swap the batteries over. A very High percentage of problems is nothing more than the battery this is what I always try fist unless the symptoms say otherwise. Having a spare battery is a big help, as you dont want to needless buy a new battery, but I know of no reliable test

I then move onto the quick and free solutions

not sure what to call this but its fixed at least 4 cars permanently, one mine(lock to lock). Park up preferably grass or gravel, kinder to the tyres but not essential, raise the revs to around 2K and quickly move the steering from lock to lock 4 or five times. Also you can also try toggling between city mode and normal driving it in each for a few minutes, this is also known to have fixed a car permanently in the past.

Power steering motor earth, I know of two car this has fixed. You can't tell by looking, unbolt it and clean with a green scouring pad or similar. The earth for the steering motor is bolted directly on top of the battery earth post. I would like to point out the earth on top of the gearbox has nothing to do with the power steering. Its often one of the first things people suggest.
If the car turns over (cranks) fine it will be fine.

torque sensor reseat, rare but I have had this fix one car for me, unplug and spray with contact cleaner and plug back in

I know nothing about this but someone had success by removing the motor and turning it through 180 degrees

recalibration with software, as far as I know this has fixed one, you can use multiecuscan, delphi, WOW and possibly more

one person has spotted a faulty alternator via a cigarette lighter volt meter.

before you check the alternator its best to inspect belt is tight, (I have had one fail due to a loose belt, I suspect there should be more.) not cracked or missing sections

moving on to the alternator itself, as far as I know this has fixed one, this is how I test mine

Listen for noises, squeal, rumble or grinding

the bearing can be checked with some rubber Hose works like a stethoscope. Although I find it easier to just slip the belt off and see if the noise goes

Let the battery rest for a few hours after a run then connect a volt meter on DC volts leads on the battery positive and negative terminals It should read 12.5-12.65 volts.

Start the engine should be between 13.5-14.5 volts. Mine is 14.1V. If its low try wiggling the wires if it jumps up suspect a loose connection

turning on the main beam, rear heated windows and blowers on max, voltage should remain above 13 volts, rev the engine it shouldn't go above 15V

we are now running out of simple solution

if you now read the error code and it says power. I have missed something out. sorry possibly the earth block bolted to the footwell but have never heard of one failing

if you have torque sensor symptoms and only a torque sensor error your only option is either change the steering column or torque sensor

torque sensor replace, this had fix quite a few in the past, less so now, we have learnt more since the early days, so make sure that it has been cleaned(contact cleaner) and reseat first otherwise it might not be the fault, but just fixed by swapping out the old dirty connector for a new part with a clean connector

I would like to add. From my experience that it can be a pain to fix. But stick with it. I have done at least a dozen not just Fiats, Not a single one yet has required a major repair in the end. In fact the only part I have ever replaced is the battery. The rest have just been reseat, clean, recalibrate or tighten belt. The odds have to be in favour of a cheap and easy repair.

Hi , i am struggling with my abarth grande punto , can you give some ideas? So the car gives times to times asr unavailable and hill holder and very rare ocasions says to check the steering , is turn on and off usually solves it, the car does not ride everydays usually on weekends , battery 2 years old with some time sitting on not running, when i connected with mes i got the c0051 and c1002 , also u0422, when i did live data i noticed the clutch switch was not giving information, but no faults and i removed and checked if passed current and all seems fine. Any ideas?
Best regards

 

[koalar]

Hi , i am struggling with my abarth grande punto , can you give some ideas? So the car gives times to times asr unavailable and hill holder

These two together are normally the brake switch

and very rare ocasions says to check the steering , is turn on and off usually solves it, the car does not ride everydays usually on weekends , battery 2 years old with some time sitting on not running, when i connected with mes i got the c0051 and c1002 ,

Steering torque sensor, either the sensor or it not receiving the correct voltage

Almost certainly a power or earth problem if its rare and random

also u0422,

Is likely to be a power problem

when i did live data i noticed the clutch switch was not giving information, but no faults and i removed and checked if passed current and all seems fine. Any ideas?
Best regards

Do you have a multimeter?
Battery charger?
Second car?

 

[Luisc]

These two together are normally the brake switch

Steering torque sensor, either the sensor or it not receiving the correct voltage

Almost certainly a power or earth problem if its rare and random


Is likely to be a power problem
View attachment 430641




Do you have a multimeter?
Battery charger?
Second car?

But in live data the brake switch works fine and gives the on / off position , the clutch switch however not gives the right information, any points i could check the earth? And the u0422 is checked on the yaw sensor? .
I have a multimeter
And i have tried to charge the battery but no luck
I have a second car .
Also worth mention that somethimes my headlight flickering at night.
Thank you and best regards

 

[koalar]

But in live data the brake switch works fine and gives the on / off position , the clutch switch however not gives the right information, any points i could check the earth?

Yes

And the u0422 is checked on the yaw sensor?

U0422
Is communication to the BSI according to elearn

.
I have a multimeter

Great

And i have tried to charge the battery but no luck

Great, that's one less step

I have a second car .

I was going to suggest swapping the battery for the known good, but you have already done this

Also worth mention that somethimes my headlight flickering at night.

Great info, this gives us a direction to follow

Thank you and best regards

Flickering headlights, c0051 and c1002 , and u0422 are often a power or ground issue, I would guess they are all connected, and this is where I would start


Before diving into diagnosing the problem a little more information might be able to pinpoint where to start testing


The headlights are flickering
Do they do this while stationery
Only when accelerating or braking
Only on bumpy roads
Only at low revs

Bumpy roads would suggest wiring, low revs would suggest alternator


I good quick and easy first step is to check the engine ground, disable the engine from starting, I pull the main relay out. I can't really advise as to which one as this is the Panda section and you have a Punto

Clean the top of the negative battery terminal with a great kitchen scouring pad or similar, do the same on a none painted part of the engine or cylinder head

Set the multimeter to DC volts, if it's not auto ranging switch it to around 20V


With the test leads on the negative terminal and the engine block, get someone to turn the engine over for around 5 seconds

The voltage should not go above 0.2V try the same while wiggling the earth cable at the battery and under the battery tray

Put the relay back in

Then check the chassis ground

Multi meter on the negative terminal again, put the other lead on any clean non painted part of the body shell, start the car put the main beam and rear heated window on and it should remain under 0.2V try wiggling the battery earth lead again

Assuming both tests remain below 0.2V the earth lead is good, I wouldn't be overly concerned if it was just a little higher


While doing this you can data log the battery voltage with multiecuscan

Here's mine with headlights and main beam flicked on and off

There's a 0.2V of a voltage drop but if you let it stabilise it's nearer to 0.1V

 

[Luisc]

Yes

U0422
Is communication to the BSI according to elearn

Great

Great, that's one less step

I was going to suggest swapping the battery for the known good, but you have already done this

Great info, this gives us a direction to follow



Flickering headlights, c0051 and c1002 , and u0422 are often a power or ground issue, I would guess they are all connected, and this is where I would start


Before diving into diagnosing the problem a little more information might be able to pinpoint where to start testing


The headlights are flickering
Do they do this while stationery
Only when accelerating or braking
Only on bumpy roads
Only at low revs

Bumpy roads would suggest wiring, low revs would suggest alternator


I good quick and easy first step is to check the engine ground, disable the engine from starting, I pull the main relay out. I can't really advise as to which one as this is the Panda section and you have a Punto

Clean the top of the negative battery terminal with a great kitchen scouring pad or similar, do the same on a none painted part of the engine or cylinder head

Set the multimeter to DC volts, if it's not auto ranging switch it to around 20V


With the test leads on the negative terminal and the engine block, get someone to turn the engine over for around 5 seconds

The voltage should not go above 0.2V try the same while wiggling the earth cable at the battery and under the battery tray

Put the relay back in

Then check the chassis ground

Multi meter on the negative terminal again, put the other lead on any clean non painted part of the body shell, start the car put the main beam and rear heated window on and it should remain under 0.2V try wiggling the battery earth lead again

Assuming both tests remain below 0.2V the earth lead is good, I wouldn't be overly concerned if it was just a little higher


While doing this you can data log the battery voltage with multiecuscan

Here's mine with headlights and main beam flicked on and off

View attachment 430644

There's a 0.2V of a voltage drop but if you let it stabilise it's nearer to 0.1V

So my headlights happened in a mountain road in a corner but low revs , and the error of the asr and hill holder happens always at starting the car , i did charge the battery but not solved , but i did not try the battery of the second car because is not the same electric measures , is a diesel mito 1.6 ! Bit stronger battery can i try? My earth battery cable looks like this maybe i will give it a shot at cleaning.

Also i noticed something like a chirping noise at start up at first i was thinking it could be the exhaust manifold leaking but maybe is the alternator belt or bearing , is Only at cold start when hot is fine.
Thank you alot for the help i am at half an year and 2 mecanics and none have solved it .
Best regards

 

[koalar]

So my headlights happened in a mountain road in a corner but low revs ,

Dam corner and low revs at the same time doesn't narrow it down much

and the error of the asr and hill holder happens always at starting the car

I am ignoring this for the time being, a power and ground issues can cause sorts of gremlins,

, i did charge the battery but not solved , but i did not try the battery of the second car because is not the same electric measures , is a diesel mito 1.6 ! Bit stronger battery can i try?

Makes no difference, if you can make it fit you can try it

My earth battery cable looks like this maybe i will give it a shot at cleaning.

View attachment 430646

Can't really see too much here, the black lead is to earth lead going to the EPS motor, it would be worth unbolting and cleaning with a scouring pad, smearing with dielectric or petroleum gel and bolting back, while your there, is the black insulator okay under the crud. It's hard to tell in the photo, the part that normally corrodes is off camera

Also i noticed something like a chirping noise at start up at first

Bearing or aux belt, problem needs addressing, does your car have aircon

i was thinking it could be the exhaust

Unlikely

manifold leaking but maybe is the alternator belt or bearing ,

Correct

is Only at cold start when hot is fine.
Thank you alot for the help i am at half an year and 2 mecanics and none have solved it .
Best regards

 

[Luisc]

Dam corner and low revs at the same time doesn't narrow it down much

I am ignoring this for the time being, a power and ground issues can cause sorts of gremlins,

Makes no difference, if you can make it fit you can try it


Can't really see too much here, the black lead is to earth lead going to the EPS motor, it would be worth unbolting and cleaning with a scouring pad, smearing with dielectric or petroleum gel and bolting back, while your there, is the black insulator okay under the crud. It's hard to tell in the photo, the part that normally corrodes is off camera


Bearing or aux belt, problem needs addressing, does your car have aircon


Unlikely

Correct

Yes , usualy when the lights flickered was always on the move , i checked the earth from the battery and is well fixed to the chassi , i will try the alfa battery to check if it runs ok and without faults , and maybe is the alternator that is failing i will let you know ,best regards

 

[koalar]

Something fairly big miss from the original posts

The engine and chassis earths can indirectly cause EPS fault

Although the EPS uses its own earth that tagged onto the top of the battery terminal

the main engine and chassis earths both affect the alternator charge and the voltages seen by each module

 

[koalar]

​

versione: all versions with electric power assisted steering 4110 1 101 AE ELECTRIC POWER STEERING (EPS) Diagnostic procedure In advance of the Service Manual update and to complete the instructions in Service News 41.08.04 - CD 02/2004 (Fiat Panda - EPS system diagnostic procedures), the diagnostic procedure is described below: 41K74 Failure warning light coming on without failure of electric steering power assistance The fault diagnosis carried out in this way should be entered under SIGI code 4110 1 101 AE for which there is a time allowance of 0.35 hours; for all operations mentioned, refer to the Service Manual and the Flat Rate Manual If carrying out a procedure leads to the replacement of the EPS system, the assembly removed should be sent (following the market regulations) to GENCO (ex GEMCA) accompanied by a copy of the procedure page with the step indicating the replacement operation highlighted. EPS assemblies that do not have this documentation will not be recognized under the terms of the warranty. For the Italian market the replacement is also linked to prior notification of TESEO Product who will provide a diagnostic certificate and authorize the operation. When carrying out the diagnostic procedure, at the end of each operation check whether the action taken has solved the problem and whether the symptom is no longer present. In this case the diagnostic procedure is over and has led to the problem being identified and solved. If this is not the case, the problem is still present and therefore it is necessary to continue with the diagnostic procedure, starting again from the Step indicated under "All OK". Diagnostic Procedure 41 K74 Failure warning light coming on without failure of electric steering power assistance Symptom/Conditions: The Customer complains of the EPS failure warning light coming on when the electric steering power assistance is working properly Fault diagnosis Results of the tests Step Operation to be carried out 1 ELECTRICAL CHECKS All OK Problems found Operation Check: -That the electrical connections coming from the body computer are correctly fitted in the EPS system-That the battery terminals are correctly tightened-The continuity of the EPS supply wiring. Move on to Step 2 Connections loose and/or breaks in continuity at both ends of the wiring Adjust the wiring connections. If the problem persists, move on to Step 2 2 CHECK ON CONDITIONS IN WHICH THE FAULT OCCURS All OK Problems found Operation Check when the problem occurs - The warning light comes on temporarily (flashes) with the vehicle moving. Do not intervene on the electric steering. The light coming on may be due to possible problems with the control panel. The warning light remains on permanently. Move on to Step 3 3 CHECK WITH DIAGNOSTIC EQUIPMENT All OK Problems found Operation Connect the Examiner diagnostic equipment and check that there are no faults End of diagnosis Torque and/or position sensor error (5002) Check and clean the earth connections. Cancel the error. If the problem persists, replace the EPS system. CLAIM REPORT DATA​ Version Operation Piece Fault Position Time allowance all versions in question 4110110 1 AE - .35 (*) (*) Time allowance for carrying out the fault diagnosis. If the components are being replaced, add the Flat Rate Manual time allowance.

 

[kavil]

I have a steering wheel support problem with a red warning on the dashboard. Fiat panda 1.2 2009

I have tried the following remedies for this problem, trying each one for at least a few days-km. Unfortunately each one resulted in a similar red warning and loss of steering wheel support.

I have tried cleaning the battery contacts,
I cleaned the old earth cable,
I also added 1 extra earth lead.
I have just bought a new Varta C22 battery.

None of them unfortunately helped.
Steering wheel gets really heavy, I get to a safe place and turn the ignition off and on again and it works again.

Alternator works as it should. Battery rest voltage is 12.6v.

 

[koalar]

I have a steering wheel support problem with a red warning on the dashboard. Fiat panda 1.2 2009

Is it random, totally random is rare
Worse at the begining of the journey
Worse on hot or cold days
Worse on full lock in one direction
Worse at slow roads or fast roads

I have tried the following remedies for this problem, trying each one for at least a few days-km. Unfortunately each one resulted in a similar red warning and loss of steering wheel support.

I have tried cleaning the battery contacts,
I cleaned the old earth cable,
I also added 1 extra earth lead.
I have just bought a new Varta C22 battery.

We know it's not the battery
Is it worse, same or better after the battery change
Did you unbolt these and clean the contacts

Have you checked the contacts on the fuse for corrosion and under the nut A is clean and nipped up

None of them unfortunately helped.
Steering wheel gets really heavy, I get to a safe place and turn the ignition off and on again and it works again.

Alternator works as it should. Battery rest voltage is 12.6v.

Have you cleaned this terminal

It's on the A pillar

Do you have access to diagnostic software that can connect to the steering module


On loose ground, sand, grass, gravel or similar, Raise the revs to over 2000 RPM, move the steering full lock quickly left to right a few times, press the city mode on and off a few times

 

[kavil]

I can not pin point it exactly but it does not happen on highway once. Most of the time early in the morning turning on to the street or so.

I removed old the negative and possitive nuts and bolts and with cleaned it with emory cloth inside out, including the inner area of battery terminals. I sprayed contact cleaner and wiped it off with clean towel.

I tried lock to lock turning on grass surface around 3000 rpm for atleast 10 times both in normal and city mode. Started and stopped the car in between and also tried it without stopping the car. Total of 40 times i moved steering left lock to right lock. The car was warm and the air was also around 15c. It did not failed during these procedure but after 2days it failed 4 times in a 20kms of driving.

I did not check the fusebox and a pillar contact. I will check the fusebox bolt and f05fy and report again.


Where is this. C020 B connection exactly? Is it in odb2 port compartment

 

[koalar]

I can not pin point it exactly but it does not happen on highway once. Most of the time early in the morning turning on to the street or so.

I removed old the negative and possitive nuts and bolts and with cleaned it with emory cloth inside out, including the inner area of battery terminals. I sprayed contact cleaner and wiped it off with clean towel.

I tried lock to lock turning on grass surface around 3000 rpm for atleast 10 times both in normal and city mode. Started and stopped the car in between and also tried it without stopping the car. Total of 40 times i moved steering left lock to right lock. The car was warm and the air was also around 15c. It did not failed during these procedure but after 2days it failed 4 times in a 20kms of driving.

I did not check the fusebox and a pillar contact. I will check the fusebox bolt and f05fy and report again.


Where is this. C020 B connection exactly? Is it in odb2 port compartment

My car RHD

If you open the front passenger door and kneel on the ground and look up towards the glove box, it's a black box bolted near where the door hinge

Pretty sure the LHD are the same