Technical Engine stop, oil everywhere but no warnings

[Dingo]

Evening all

I had my 2011 Twinair serviced at a national chain garage (non-FIAT) yesterday. I've always had good service from this garage over several years. The service included a change of all the changeable fluids.
I drove from Warrington to Lancaster today (about 55 miles). No problems all the way up the motorway, everything normal. When I turned off the motorway I got a slight hesitation on the roundabout... it then ran fine for a few miles. Finally, on reaching the town, I had two sudden massive engine hesitations then it just stopped. Fuel and temperature gauges were normal and no warning lights displayed. The start/stop was even trying to restart the engine but it was just turning over with no life. When I got out of the car it became obvious I'd been leaking oil from somewhere - you could smell the burning and the back of the car was coated in oil :bang: Because the weather was wet there was no way for me to know anything was amiss.
Having been recovered, the recovery driver had a quick poke around and came to the conclusion that most likely the sump plug had leaked - the dipstick was showing empty. There was no sign of any obvious failure under the bonnet.
Obviously I'll be having strong words with the garage in question tomorrow but I was wondering if anyone could explain the sequence of events? Obviously I would've stopped immediately if I'd got an oil pressure warning or an engine management warning but I got nothing. The car still didn't seem to think anything was wrong even when I was stranded at the roadside!

I hope someone can shed some light on this for me!
Ian

 

[ahmett]

Evening all

I had my 2011 Twinair serviced at a national chain garage (non-FIAT) yesterday. I've always had good service from this garage over several years. The service included a change of all the changeable fluids.
I drove from Warrington to Lancaster today (about 55 miles). No problems all the way up the motorway, everything normal. When I turned off the motorway I got a slight hesitation on the roundabout... it then ran fine for a few miles. Finally, on reaching the town, I had two sudden massive engine hesitations then it just stopped. Fuel and temperature gauges were normal and no warning lights displayed. The start/stop was even trying to restart the engine but it was just turning over with no life. When I got out of the car it became obvious I'd been leaking oil from somewhere - you could smell the burning and the back of the car was coated in oil :bang: Because the weather was wet there was no way for me to know anything was amiss.
Having been recovered, the recovery driver had a quick poke around and came to the conclusion that most likely the sump plug had leaked - the dipstick was showing empty. There was no sign of any obvious failure under the bonnet.
Obviously I'll be having strong words with the garage in question tomorrow but I was wondering if anyone could explain the sequence of events? Obviously I would've stopped immediately if I'd got an oil pressure warning or an engine management warning but I got nothing. The car still didn't seem to think anything was wrong even when I was stranded at the roadside!

I hope someone can shed some light on this for me!
Ian

oh dear! i really hope you didnt ruin the engine! does fiats system have a failsafe system to shut off engine if there is no oil? or just it just run until it blows? lets wait for the experts!

 

[Dingo]

oh dear! i really hope you didnt ruin the engine! does fiats system have a failsafe system to shut off engine if there is no oil?

I really hope so... it hadn't seized, it was still turning freely when I first pulled up and the start/stop tried to restart the engine. That made me initially think I had a fuel problem... until I got out and discovered the back of the car had been marinated!

 

[ahmett]

I really hope so... it hadn't seized, it was still turning freely when I first pulled up and the start/stop tried to restart the engine. That made me initially think I had a fuel problem... until I got out and discovered the back of the car had been marinated!

good sign so far = ) be patient though the forum engineers will come with their thoughts shortly!

 

[jrkitching]

I hope someone can shed some light on this for me!

Evening Ian

I'm sorry to say I have a bad feeling about this. Running a car to the point where the engine stops as a result of oil starvation will more likely than not result in a totally wrecked engine. The massive hesitations you describe sound to me much like momentary seizures, whether they be seizures of the engine or the turbocharger remains to be seen.

In your place, I think I'd be doing some homework on how to make a claim for the damage against the garage who serviced it. I'd want it repaired by a franchised dealer, and I'd want a decent warranty on the repair.

In the circumstances you describe, unless I could get the servicing garage to cough for a new or exchange engine and turbo, fitted by Fiat, I don't think I'd have any confidence in the car going forward.

Posts like this make me think there is a lot to be said for adopting aviation practice on critical items and lockwiring sump plugs. If this engine were in an aircraft, it would now be stripped down to the last nut & bolt before it ever flew again, and all the bearing shells would have to be replaced even if they appeared perfect.

 

[Dingo]

Grim. I'll let you know what the outcome is.

I'm still mystified as to how it could have got to this stage without giving me *any* warnings? If the weather had been dry I might well have realised beforehand but with all indications normal and no warning lights how was I to know? If I had lost all my oil shouldn't I have at least got a low oil pressure warning?

Ian

 

[zanes]

Evening Ian

I'm sorry to say I have a bad feeling about this. Running a car to the point where the engine stops as a result of oil starvation will more likely than not result in a totally wrecked engine. The massive hesitations you describe sound to me much like momentary seizures, whether they be seizures of the engine or the turbocharger remains to be seen.

In your place, I think I'd be doing some homework on how to make a claim for the damage against the garage who serviced it. I'd want it repaired by a franchised dealer, and I'd want a decent warranty on the repair.

In the circumstances you describe, unless I could get the servicing garage to cough for a new or exchange engine and turbo, fitted by Fiat, I don't think I'd have any confidence in the car going forward.

Bear in mind the twinair utilises oil to actuate the valves- whilst this does not sound fantastic, it might not be as bad as an engine that's been run <totally> dry and stopping due to seizure, as the 1.2 would.

I wonder if the hesitations were the result of the oil flow to the valves being interrupted by low oil level, rather than the engine/turbo starting to seize. The first hesitation being on the roundabout might have been the oil pump intake being momentarily uncovered as the oil in the sump surged.

Odd too that it took 55 miles to become apparent- if it was a loose sump plug I'd think it would all be over rather quickly. Maybe a filter not sealed properly?

However, I agree with the overall premise of your post- there may well be significant damage (the turbo too would worry me) that may not be immediately apparent.

Odd too that the oil pressure warning light failed to come on- though, as ever, they're usually only good for a few seconds of warning.

Didn't a member have very similar to this a few years back with their twinair when brand new? EDIT- Was it Grimwau?

 

[jrkitching]

Didn't a member have very similar to this a few years back with their twinair when brand new?

Yes, Grimwau lost all the oil very shortly after taking delivery of a new TA. IIRC the car never ran properly after that and he traded it in very shortly afterwards, losing a considerable sum in the process.

Sometimes it's best just to cut your losses and run.

Interesting thought about the effect of low oil on the valve gear, but if you run the top of the engine dry, it's going to start making metal and who knows where the resultant debris may have ended up after another 50 miles of driving. Either way, the engine is quite likely scrap.

 

[zanes]

Yes, Grimwau lost all the oil very shortly after taking delivery of a new TA. IIRC the car never ran properly after that and he traded it in very shortly afterwards, losing a considerable sum in the process.

Sometimes it's best just to cut your losses and run.

Can't find the thread, sure it's out there somewhere! He didn't get anywhere with FIAT/the dealer then?

Interesting thought about the effect of low oil on the valve gear, but if you run the top of the engine dry, it's going to start making metal and who knows where the resultant debris may have ended up after another 50 miles of driving. Either way, the engine is quite likely scrap.

Very true- for some reason I always seem to think the twinair doesn't have a camshaft, when, of course, in reality there's an oil chamber in between the cam and valve. It's all speculation until the engine is opened up in any case.

 

[Dingo]

I'm going to sleep well tonight Ahhhh

I'm going to cling on to some kind of false hope that the oil leak is very unlikely to be coincident with the oil pressure sensor failing silently and that there is some other factor at work. I'll report back with the prognosis when I have it

Ian

 

[UFI]

Does your oil light come on with ignition on?

 

[AndyRKett]

I think zanes may be on the make with his suggestion, it could well be as the oil ran low the oil pump struggled to pick up and oil pressure dropped but not to the point of running the engine dry and causing the pressure light to come on, however the pressure was to low to actuate the valves and as such the valves didn't open properly and eventually stuck shut and stalled the engine.

It may only need the oil replacing a check over and starting up again.

I'd want to change the oil again to examine what comes out check for any metal or fragments, and change the filter again to see if there is anything obvious trapped in it.

Fingers crossed for you

 

[Dingo]

Does your oil light come on with ignition on?

Yes it does, then goes off as expected once started.

 

[zanes]

I think zanes may be on the make with his suggestion, it could well be as the oil ran low the oil pump struggled to pick up and oil pressure dropped but not to the point of running the engine dry and causing the pressure light to come on, however the pressure was to low to actuate the valves and as such the valves didn't open properly and eventually stuck shut and stalled the engine.

That's the crappest oil pressure warning light ever designed if that's the sequence of things during correct operation- a valve train that ceases working before the low pressure warning comes on. I suspect the OP has two (very unfortunately linked) problems here- a potentially dead oil pressure switch and the oil leak plus potential consequential damage. Unless, of course, his attention was distracted by the apparent problems/hesitations as the engine stopped.

Of course, it's worth remembering it's a low pressure warning, not a low level warning light.

As JRKitching pointed out, if there isn't enough oil/oil pressure to fill the multiair chambers, there probably isn't enough to lubricate the camshaft journals properly- though, of course, there's a question as to how long that situation existed for- during the stutter on the roundabout and then the two big hesitations just before stalling or between the roundabout and stalling. My money would be on the former (because if dingo noticed a slight hesitation at the onset of this problem I'm sure he would have noticed degraded performance and ongoing hesitations as the chambers gradually ran drier and drier), but without further inspection it's all just guess work and hunches.

The fact that Grimwau apparently had such problems after a similar (though not identical) problem and the fact that the engine was very hot when this problem occured does not go in the OP's favour.

I don't know how much oil has to be in the sump before it registers on the bottom of the dipstick- though, of course, more could have leaked out between dingo breaking down and the recovery driver checking the dipstick.

I also don't know the oil route around the engine.

I'd want to change the oil again to examine what comes out check for any metal or fragments, and change the filter again to see if there is anything obvious trapped in it.

I'd also be doing this- though if all the oil has leaked out it might be a case of needing to drop the sump off to inspect it for shavings etc.

I'd also be insisting on a pressure test of the oil pressure switch and, if that tests good, a demonstration of the correct operation of the light on the car- connecting the sensor cable up to a free pressure switch whilst the engine is running.

I'd be leaning heavily on the dealer for them to take responsibility, though as ever go in friendly rather than all guns blazing. It sounds like Dingo has a good relationship with this garage and they're not some dodgy backstreet operation so they may stand by the problems.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

Very nasty. A tale of my own here might help.
Years ago I took my (then) two year old Ford into a main dealership for routine servicing, and had exactly the same experience. The engine smelled strange after only a few miles down the road, and I realised that oil was burning, so I stopped. The dipstick showed zero. My receipt stated that oil and filter had been changed. The dealer actually recovered the car, and I immediately wrote and demanded a replacement engine. Responsibility for the problem was not in dispute, but a big written argument then developed
I didn't budge. And eventually I got a new engine.
The basis for this was that their negligence had probably done damage that might not immediately show up. They countered by saying that the engine was now running fine with no defects, so I insisted that it be stripped to prove this. Of course, doing this was far more work for them than fitting s replacement, so that's what I got.
I contributed 30% to the cost, and was well satisfied.

 

[jrkitching]

I contributed 30% to the cost, and was well satisfied.

I wouldn't have contibuted a penny.

I would argue there is no betterment, as an engine core could reasonably be expected to last the life of the car in normal service and you have therefore gained nothing as a result of having it replaced after two years.

I haven't had an engine fail in service since 1973, and I've run two cars over 100k and one over 200k.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

I wouldn't have contibuted a penny.

I would argue there is no betterment, as an engine core could reasonably be expected to last the life of the car in normal service and you have therefore gained nothing as a result of having it replaced after two years.

I haven't had an engine fail in service since 1973, and I've run two cars over 100k and one over 200k.

Easily said. But circumstances alter cases.
The dealer refilled the sump and the engine ran as before. He stated that, even though the dipstick registered zero, there was still sufficient oil left to avoid any damage. Possibly true, but the eventual outcome after a fight was as I previously stated - a 30% contribution.
At the time, we were running six identical Fords ( Mk II Cortinas, so you can see that this was a long time ago) for business reasons. This particular one had the roughest engine - maybe a Friday car. The new engine transformed the car, enabled us to sell it on later at a higher price because of the engine's low mileage, and any residual cost was offset, tax deductible, and virtually 'lost' within the business.
We did not come out the losers, although if I was in the same situation today as a private individual, presumably like the OP, I would push for the ideal solution - a no-cost replacement. Though in today's climate I doubt that will happen here.

 

[jrkitching]

Easily said. But circumstances alter cases...
...Though in today's climate I doubt that will happen here.

You're right, of course; the ideal outcome seems much easier to achieve when spoken from an armchair than negotiated over a service desk. Sometimes a compromise, whilst not ideal, is better than an energy sapping fight and six months of uncertainty without the use of the car.

But if push comes to shove, and the OP takes this one all the way, the final decision won't be taken by me, you, the OP, or the garage who created the problem - it'll be taken by a County Court Judge. And noone can predict with certainty what that decision would be.

Whatever, if I couldn't swing an engine replacement after an incident like this, I'd be cutting my losses and ditching the car at the earliest opportunity.

 

[zanes]

Grim. I'll let you know what the outcome is.

I'm still mystified as to how it could have got to this stage without giving me *any* warnings? If the weather had been dry I might well have realised beforehand but with all indications normal and no warning lights how was I to know? If I had lost all my oil shouldn't I have at least got a low oil pressure warning?

Ian

Any update Dingo?

 

[Dingo]

I know I'm coming to come in for some stick but I'll give you the update anyway :S
After ringing them first thing Monday morning, the garage (who I'm now prepared to name as Halfords Autocentre) collected the car from my house within a couple of hours. They quickly identified that the O ring on the oil filter had failed but didn't find any evidence of further damage. They replaced the filter and oil, steam cleaned the engine bay and cleaned the car exterior of oil and road tested it. They told me if I had any problems going forward to contact them straightaway and they'd look into it further (I have admission of fault in writing). They will also give me my next service free.

I have an OBD reader and there are no engine fault codes logged and it's driving absolutely fine. Hopefully that's the end of the matter....

Ian