Oh and Rich, I thought it was pretty obvious I answered your question. Of course it wouldn't be my policy but neither is it any party's. Well, not that I know about.
Election then - Kinda inevitable. FF secret ballot!
- Thread starter Dr_Pepper
- Start date
Currently reading:
Election then - Kinda inevitable. FF secret ballot!
OP
OP
I'm confused, I asked what your policy on Asylum/Immigration would be. If you did say what it would be, I can't see it...
UKIP propose replacing the student loan with GRANTS. How is that worse? Plus like I said such domestic policy is irrelevant they are a one-policy party and I'm happy with that.
You already know my views on top-up fees, I think the universities should be allowed to charge whatever they want.
UKIP propose replacing the student loan with GRANTS. How is that worse? Plus like I said such domestic policy is irrelevant they are a one-policy party and I'm happy with that.
You already know my views on top-up fees, I think the universities should be allowed to charge whatever they want.
The Negotiator said:
GGGGGRRRRRRRRRR
I now wanna drop you in a hospital, tell you to work your balls off from 8 'till 8 with no break, dealing with all kinds of unimaginable things like women in labour and see if you still think that 17k (after over 2 years of experiance now) is still sodding reasonable. I would not like someone delivering my child who could make more working for McD's and would be working less hard!!! As that is the topmost figure - surely you realise how many people *actually* get paid anywhere near that amount?? Hardly any. And I still think that under 50K is not enough to be paying someone who will save your child's life.
Student loans
The current threshold of £10,000 and the Higher Education Act's proposed future threshold of £15,000 for repaying debt accumulated at university, are both too low for doctors in training. The threshold should be revised to a minimum of £23,000 (in line with the start of the Senior House Officer basic pay).
New medical graduates are tied to one employer for a number of years. They also provide a vital public service. Contrary to popular belief, junior doctors' rates of pay are initially relatively low. Rather than an automatic entitlement upon graduation from a lengthy course, pay in junior years is related to extremely long and anti-social working hours.
Student loans should reflect the nature of degree studied. Medical students subsist on much smaller amounts pro rata because existing loan arrangements do not take into account the fact that high academic and clinical workloads in their final year militate against supplementing income through part time work. Full final year loans must be based on the actual length of the medical student's academic year (i.e. because the final year of medical school lasts for 50 weeks, and not the usual 30 week academic year, the standard loan should be multiplied by a factor of 5/3). Interest payable on loans must remain linked to inflation, not reflect rates in the commercial sector.
Source : British Medical Association : http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/Medstudfunding
What is said here is not directly aimed at Midwives, but you get the general jist, considering this can be taken as a minimum of two-fold for midwives...
The current threshold of £10,000 and the Higher Education Act's proposed future threshold of £15,000 for repaying debt accumulated at university, are both too low for doctors in training. The threshold should be revised to a minimum of £23,000 (in line with the start of the Senior House Officer basic pay).
New medical graduates are tied to one employer for a number of years. They also provide a vital public service. Contrary to popular belief, junior doctors' rates of pay are initially relatively low. Rather than an automatic entitlement upon graduation from a lengthy course, pay in junior years is related to extremely long and anti-social working hours.
Student loans should reflect the nature of degree studied. Medical students subsist on much smaller amounts pro rata because existing loan arrangements do not take into account the fact that high academic and clinical workloads in their final year militate against supplementing income through part time work. Full final year loans must be based on the actual length of the medical student's academic year (i.e. because the final year of medical school lasts for 50 weeks, and not the usual 30 week academic year, the standard loan should be multiplied by a factor of 5/3). Interest payable on loans must remain linked to inflation, not reflect rates in the commercial sector.
Source : British Medical Association : http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/Medstudfunding
What is said here is not directly aimed at Midwives, but you get the general jist, considering this can be taken as a minimum of two-fold for midwives...
Richard, you miss the point of UKIPs policy, grants for the poorest students, not for the normal person, they lose their loans. I am not quite sure how you think you could afford 10k tutition fees a year, i.e. cost of uni £14k or so/year. I know I couldn't.
You said "is that your policy?" and I said no. Now you have asked that question without going into details it's about the indvidual cases, not numbers or stats, the person, tories forget this.
Matt; 17.6k is the starting figure (i.e. the government set minimum) and after 2 years your mum should be earning more. I don't know why she isn't.
And TBH, 50k is more than enough, in an ideal world everybody would get paid a £1mill for everything and there wouldn't be rich or poor. But that can't happen...
AND FOR THE 3RD TIME....work time directive would mean you wouldn't be allowed to work 8-8 for more than 4 days a week, it means you can only do a maximum of a 6 day 8 hour week.
You said "is that your policy?" and I said no. Now you have asked that question without going into details it's about the indvidual cases, not numbers or stats, the person, tories forget this.
Matt; 17.6k is the starting figure (i.e. the government set minimum) and after 2 years your mum should be earning more. I don't know why she isn't.
And TBH, 50k is more than enough, in an ideal world everybody would get paid a £1mill for everything and there wouldn't be rich or poor. But that can't happen...
AND FOR THE 3RD TIME....work time directive would mean you wouldn't be allowed to work 8-8 for more than 4 days a week, it means you can only do a maximum of a 6 day 8 hour week.
Eh?! Of course a junior doctor should get paid a fairly low amount, firstly because they are still in training (an apprentice if you wish) and will very soon be earning 35k odd for their first career job. That's about double the average.
As a chem eng graduate with a masters (without a PhD which wouldn't have a huge affect) I would expect to start on about 18k, this is usually stated to be the second hardest degree you can do, only behind a medic's degree. Just like a medic however if I am good (and with a PhD) I could expect to be earning 40k plus within a year or two and have a practically limitless top line, as do private doctors.
As a chem eng graduate with a masters (without a PhD which wouldn't have a huge affect) I would expect to start on about 18k, this is usually stated to be the second hardest degree you can do, only behind a medic's degree. Just like a medic however if I am good (and with a PhD) I could expect to be earning 40k plus within a year or two and have a practically limitless top line, as do private doctors.
OP
OP
No I didn't! I said:Paul said:
And you still haven't answered! I feel like Jeremy Paxman.Me said:
By the way, first time I've really looked at the poll. It looks like the tories will form the next FF government.
Crazy world we live in then!
Sorry, I read "would this be your policy then?"
I did give it above:
it's about the indvidual cases, not numbers or stats, the person, tories forget this.
So mine would be to allow people in who either need it for their safety or will be beneficial for the country in general.
Sorry, I read "would this be your policy then?"
I did give it above:
it's about the indvidual cases, not numbers or stats, the person, tories forget this.
So mine would be to allow people in who either need it for their safety or will be beneficial for the country in general.
But this is not a question of doctors - I was using it as a illustrative example. I have no doubt that doctors are paid loads eventually. Midwives are not - fact. When they start they do not start as "apprentices" they go into the health service to do a job and have no misconceptions about this, they are thrown in at the deep end.
The NHS is so cheap and starved of money in the places it needs it (wages of nurese and miswives - clear example) that THIS is the reason that she is still paid sod all, yet required to work harder than I personally ever want to! And don't be blatenly silly
with that "ideal" world comment - clearly midwives save lives and protect future generations of this country. Clearly something that is worth paying a lot for (not even a lot... just a decent amount) which is not what occurs. I would even venture to say that a midwife is most important than a Chem Eng grad and therefore should be payed more. After all, will you directly impact on life and death each day of your working life?
*edit* You said PRIVATE doc's have a limitless top line - as I stated this is IMPOSSIBLE for a midwife due to being unable to take out private insurance - which I feel gives an obvious insight into their importance - if the insurers realise how much of a crucial and dangerous job they do, why can't the g'ment/NHS and therefore treat them better?
The NHS is so cheap and starved of money in the places it needs it (wages of nurese and miswives - clear example) that THIS is the reason that she is still paid sod all, yet required to work harder than I personally ever want to! And don't be blatenly silly
with that "ideal" world comment - clearly midwives save lives and protect future generations of this country. Clearly something that is worth paying a lot for (not even a lot... just a decent amount) which is not what occurs. I would even venture to say that a midwife is most important than a Chem Eng grad and therefore should be payed more. After all, will you directly impact on life and death each day of your working life?*edit* You said PRIVATE doc's have a limitless top line - as I stated this is IMPOSSIBLE for a midwife due to being unable to take out private insurance - which I feel gives an obvious insight into their importance - if the insurers realise how much of a crucial and dangerous job they do, why can't the g'ment/NHS and therefore treat them better?
Last edited:
Paul, I believe you were being asked what your policy on immigrants would be, but you have already said that treating each case individually would be your policy.
As far as the pay thing is concerned, it is a load of crap. Firstly, paying someone more won't stop them making mistakes, won't relieve any of the pressure, etc. Secondly, it is impossible to quantify what any job is worth, therefore it is worth the minimum that the position can be paid and the job get done. If the situation was such that babies were having to be born without midwife care, then possibly they would increase the wages to attract more people to the profession, but money is not usually the greatest motivation for someone choosing that line of work. In normal terms a wage increase will only have a very short term effect on staff, whereas things like improved working conditions, better hours, etc. usually have longer lasting benefits to staff performance.
I work very hard in a relatively high resposibility job for quite a few hours per week, with the added bonus of having to carry my drunk, depressed boss for the princely sum of £211 per week. Maybe I deserve more, but earning more wouldn't really change anything.
As far as the pay thing is concerned, it is a load of crap. Firstly, paying someone more won't stop them making mistakes, won't relieve any of the pressure, etc. Secondly, it is impossible to quantify what any job is worth, therefore it is worth the minimum that the position can be paid and the job get done. If the situation was such that babies were having to be born without midwife care, then possibly they would increase the wages to attract more people to the profession, but money is not usually the greatest motivation for someone choosing that line of work. In normal terms a wage increase will only have a very short term effect on staff, whereas things like improved working conditions, better hours, etc. usually have longer lasting benefits to staff performance.
I work very hard in a relatively high resposibility job for quite a few hours per week, with the added bonus of having to carry my drunk, depressed boss for the princely sum of £211 per week. Maybe I deserve more, but earning more wouldn't really change anything.
Put simply - that is the case! There are not enough midwives and as a result babies are dying! How much is that worth then?Neofolis said:
A chemical engineering can save millions in their life time. The bloke for example who allowed asprin to be taken from an idea to a medication world-wide has saved millions of people's lives possibly. Chemical Engineers make the tools that the medical industry uses, without those, their would be no healt care.
Neo has made a lot of valid points.
Also, if you want to look at theorists, every single neo-motivational theorist from Maslow to Herzberg stated that once you're provided with enough money to live, you're only motivated with other factors.
Neo has made a lot of valid points.
Also, if you want to look at theorists, every single neo-motivational theorist from Maslow to Herzberg stated that once you're provided with enough money to live, you're only motivated with other factors.
bad_boy_racer said:
If the situation were severe enough there would be people every day sueing the NHS for the death of their babies due to substandard health care. I dare say such cases exist, but such cases would exist no matter how good the service was. If sufficient said cases were being won, the government would do something about it, because it would be cheaper for them to employ more staff or pay more, etc. than to pay the people who's babies had died.
I am not saying it is a regular occurence obviously, but from what I understand the only reason this isn't happening to the government is because of the hard working, caring nature of midwives. For this I think they deserve better working conditions and more money - 'tis all.
They won't get the working conditions improved if you vote UKIP, they may get more money.
You're right, except they won't get anymore money either because Labour will still be in government whatever I vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The Negotiator said:
I still think they should be happy with earning 70% more than me as graduates.
My missus is about to graduate and wants to work in a medical laboratory, probably Microbiology, where she will probably start on about £12-£13k, if she works for the NHS, but she has still had to do her degree to get there. Whilst the position is not so hands on she would still be in the position of losing/ saving lives, with the added resposibility of dealing with Class 4 containment bugs.
My missus is about to graduate and wants to work in a medical laboratory, probably Microbiology, where she will probably start on about £12-£13k, if she works for the NHS, but she has still had to do her degree to get there. Whilst the position is not so hands on she would still be in the position of losing/ saving lives, with the added resposibility of dealing with Class 4 containment bugs.
Sorry that is an unfair comparison, because she would be starting as a trainee, but once she had become field qualified and got her VIVA, she would have be training for as long as a midwife and be on pretty much the same wage.
The amount that lab scientists and workers are paid in general is unbelivable.
Having said that, it's all supply vs. demand.
And Matt, wouldn't you rather vote for a party who would do things you want rather than a single policy you agree with? The idea that "it won't make a difference" is silly. If everybody thought that...
Having said that, it's all supply vs. demand.
And Matt, wouldn't you rather vote for a party who would do things you want rather than a single policy you agree with? The idea that "it won't make a difference" is silly. If everybody thought that...
To be honest, doctors aside, I think *all* (but clearly midwives in particular!) people that deal with people's lives should be paid more, especially in the NHS/public sector - this would therefore include your missus and fire/police...
