Technical EGR delete

[puntofan01]

Time to wobble your own head. You didn't advise me, you advised another poster. I haven't made any modifications to my car. No matter how hard you try, there is no compariaon or justification of your comment to sit in a car and gas yourself.

I think all he was trying to say was to put yourself in the position of those unfortunate people whom have respiratory issues, which would be made somewhat worse by diesel drivers that tamper with the emissions specification of their car.

 

[Kronkron]

I think all he was trying to say was to put yourself in the position of those unfortunate people whom have respiratory issues, which would be made somewhat worse by diesel drivers that tamper with the emissions specification of their car.

I'm sure he was and would have done a lot better by saying that or explaining more about the issues than implying someone should gas themselves in a car. I called out the comment as a bit extreme.

 

[Kronkron]

You, or the OP. Both appear to be in the same camp!

Explain how my calling out your comment as extreme put me in any camp?

 

[puntofan01]

I'm sure he was and would have done a lot better by saying that or explaining more about the issues than implying someone should gas themselves in a car. I called out the comment as a bit extreme.

Be that as it may, but if he or someone he cares a lot about is seriously affected by these emissions, you can understand why he'd get so immensely annoyed and frustrated by these people.

 

[Kronkron]

Be that as it may, but if he or someone he cares a lot about is seriously affected by these emissions, you can understand why he'd get so immensely annoyed and frustrated by these people.

I can understand, and I can also understand the impacts of abuse, mental health and suicide so felt I should point out the reaction was extreme. There is no defending that sort of comment. It's not helpful or constructive in any way.

 

[puntofan01]

I can understand, and I can also understand the impacts of abuse, mental health and suicide so felt I should point out the reaction was extreme. There is no defending that sort of comment. It's not helpful or constructive in any way.

I'm merely pointing out there might be a reason for his comments, that's all. After all, Most Easterly Pandas is among the more intelligent people on this forum.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Be that as it may, but if he or someone he cares a lot about is seriously affected by these emissions, you can understand why he'd get so immensely annoyed and frustrated by these people.

You’ve hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately it’s not until you’re directly affected with an immediate family member by the selfishly needless acts of others that occasionally the red mist does come down.

I stand by my comment though, after all pollution an exhaust fumes don’t cause serious health issues and premature death according to some..... My only mister meaner was incorrectly quoting Kronkron earlier on in the thread, for which I apologise.

It's not helpful or constructive in any way.

And neither is a comment / post, such as the OP, actively assisting, in doing such modifications.

Anyway I think we’ve thrashed this one out enough. Good day and good health to you

 

[DaveMcT]

The only way to reliable stop NOx is via the "Adblu" urea injection into the tail pipe. EGR reduces soot but is far from adequate with NOx.

Exhaust particulate filters are all very well but any issue upstream, filters, turbo, injectors will upset the beast. They also have to be used correctly, which few drivers bother to do.

My brother had a 2.4 Brera. The inlet manifold got clogged with soot (as they did). That restricted air flow and caused engine smoking. Engines in that condition are bad polluters.

 

[g8rpi]

The only way to reliable stop NOx is via the "Adblu" urea injection into the tail pipe. EGR reduces soot but is far from adequate with NOx.
Adblue is NOT injected into the tail pipe. It is added as part of a selective catalytic reduction system.
EGR does not reduce soot (it may well increase it on non-DPF vehicle.

Exhaust particulate filters are all very well but any issue upstream, filters, turbo, injectors will upset the beast. They also have to be used correctly, which few drivers bother to do.
The driver does not have to do anything to "use" a DPF, The problem is short journeys.

My brother had a 2.4 Brera. The inlet manifold got clogged with soot (as they did). That restricted air flow and caused engine smoking. Engines in that condition are bad polluters.

That is short journeys and or poor maintence.
Emissions controls are part of the cost of owning a car.



Robert G8RPI

 

[DaveMcT]

Semantics, Semantics.

TAIL PIPE means EXHAUST system.

DRIVER ABSOLUTELY HAS TO USE THE CAR PROPERLY. The DPF tells you when it needs to be "regenerated". Drivers who ignore that end up with damaged particulate filters.

 

[g8rpi]

The car does not tell the driver that they need to regenerate the DPF unless the journeys are very short / low speed. That is an abnormal condition. Most drivers have no idea what a DPF is or notice it working. Normal operation of a DPF is transparent to the driver except for some subtle signs. The DFP light never came on on my Croma in 5 years.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[lunchbeers]

That is short journeys and or poor maintence.
Emissions controls are part of the cost of owning a car.



Robert G8RPI

The clogging of the EGR on the Brera is not short journeys or bad maintenance, the EGR is located at one end of the manifold, directly opposite cylinder 5,, a later restrictor plate was added which stops some of the soot reading the manifold,it's just a bad design.

 

[g8rpi]

The clogging of the EGR on the Brera is not short journeys or bad maintenance, the EGR is located at one end of the manifold, directly opposite cylinder 5,, a later restrictor plate was added which stops some of the soot reading the manifold,it's just a bad design.

Well to be pedantic, not fitting a recommended upgrade (restrictor / swirl plate) could be considered poor maintenence.....

 

[lunchbeers]

Granted, but if I recall, it was never a service campaign, not when they could be replacing all those intake manifolds at 6+ hours labour on cars outside of warranty...

 

[jrkitching]

Granted, but if I recall, it was never a service campaign, not when they could be replacing all those intake manifolds at 6+ hours labour on cars outside of warranty...

Fiat could certainly do more to support customers who run into problems out of warranty that are basically the result of poor design; this is one example of many.

Manufacturers across the world have chosen to keep up with changing emission control regulations by making modifications to existing engines, many of which could be said to be poorly conceived and which significantly degrade long term reliability and performance; some have even resorted to outright cheating.

Governments have incentivised the purchase of cars which subsequently have been found to exacerbate the air pollution problem and are now making u-turn policy decisions which in many cases penalise the owners of those vehicles.

Many folks are, quite rightly in my opinion, annoyed and angry at being lumbered with the legacy of these poor design and policy decisions.

But none of this can ever be a justification for making illegal modifications which increase pollution and contribute to the unnecessary suffering and death of completely innocent people.

 

[DaveMcT]

My brother bought the car used so there's no way he could have known there was a design fault on the EGR design. As you say sorting it out is a huge job.

As for people causing death and destruction to others. How is the average owner to know that their engine is so badly clogged it's now poisoning wild flowers and giving people COPD. The issue looks to be endemic with diesels and petrols are not immune. VW direct injection petrol is noted for carbon clogged inlet valves. Google images "diesels with clogged inlet manifolds" and feast your eyes on a world of gunk.
I suggest that even a partially clogged engine is worse than one with a defeated EGR.

It's not unknown for 1.3 MJ engines to have clogged intake manifolds. There was a thread about that some time ago. This (not fiat this time) is from Australia. Quote - Build-up of carbon in crankcase oil has been a problem for some time, but with common rail engines, usually turbo charged and fitted with EGR valves, carbon is building up in the inlet tract at an alarming rate in some engines.https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/servicing-modern-diesels-evils-carbon/2790426/

Some Google images -
VW TDI

BMW

VW petrol turbo

 

[g8rpi]

My brother bought the car used so there's no way he could have known there was a design fault on the EGR design. As you say sorting it out is a huge job.

As for people causing death and destruction to others. How is the average owner to know that their engine is so badly clogged it's now poisoning wild flowers and giving people COPD. The issue looks to be endemic with diesels and petrols are not immune. VW direct injection petrol is noted for carbon clogged inlet valves. Google images "diesels with clogged inlet manifolds" and feast your eyes on a world of gunk.
I suggest that even a partially clogged engine is worse than one with a defeated EGR.

It's not unknown for 1.3 MJ engines to have clogged intake manifolds. There was a thread about that some time ago. This (not fiat this time) is from Australia. Quote - Build-up of carbon in crankcase oil has been a problem for some time, but with common rail engines, usually turbo charged and fitted with EGR valves, carbon is building up in the inlet tract at an alarming rate in some engines.https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/servicing-modern-diesels-evils-carbon/2790426/

Some Google images -
VW TDI

BMW

VW petrol turbo

It's not the clogging that is killing people (and plants) it's the NOx which is significantly increased by people disabling the EGR. That is why it is illegal.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

:yeahthat:

 

[DaveMcT]

EGR recirculates particulates where some get re-combusted on their second pass though the engine. The result is even finer particle matter - so called "pm10s". That stuff is so fine that nobody notices but its biologically very harmful.

NOx is increased by high temperatures and hot spots within the engine combustion chamber. Hot spots created by carbon deposits are ideal. Pre heated inlet air (As when exhaust gas is added further tops up the combustion temperatures. More heat more NOx.

There is no catalyst to deal with NOx. It can only be stopped with urea injected into the exhaust gas (AdBlu) to chemically break down the NOx.

EGR re-combusts some of the particulates but side effects are smaller particulates and they can increase NOx.
Exhaust filters trap particulates but struggle with pm10s
AdBlu treats for NOx.

Basically diesels burning dirty fuels produce dirty exhausts. What a surprise.

 

[g8rpi]

EGR recirculates particulates where some get re-combusted on their second pass though the engine. The result is even finer particle matter - so called "pm10s". That stuff is so fine that nobody notices but its biologically very harmful.

NOx is increased by high temperatures and hot spots within the engine combustion chamber. Hot spots created by carbon deposits are ideal. Pre heated inlet air (As when exhaust gas is added further tops up the combustion temperatures. More heat more NOx.

There is no catalyst to deal with NOx. It can only be stopped with urea injected into the exhaust gas (AdBlu) to chemically break down the NOx.

EGR re-combusts some of the particulates but side effects are smaller particulates and they can increase NOx.
Exhaust filters trap particulates but struggle with pm10s
AdBlu treats for NOx.

Basically diesels burning dirty fuels produce dirty exhausts. What a surprise.

Complete nonsense.
Adblue (urea) is used in conjunction with a catalyst, specfically a selective reduction catalyst (SCR = Selective Catalytic Reduction). I provides additional Nitrogen for the reaction. Just injecting Adblue into the exhaust does not reduce NOx.

Ammonia is actually greener than urea for the reaction because urea produces CO2 when reacted with NOx. Ammonia is howerver hazardous, harder to handle and store.

Robert G8RPI