Technical DOBLO - BLACK SMOKE - LOTS

[Factseeker]

Hi,

New to this Forum and also new to the Fiat Doblo - recently purchased - Fiat Doblo 2005 1.9 JTD 119_,223_ ACTIVE

I went for the Car for practicality sake and I only need for this next year but if I have reasonably trouble free running may well stick with it - certainly 'practical'.

It looks from the MOTs and Logs that it has really done very limited mileage (2,500 pa) each past 3 years. Interior & Bodywork reflects that - really good condition.

Only fault on running was some ocassional slight hesitation at 1,800 Revs - especially in 3rd gear.

I changed Oil and all Filters - Fuel - Air - Oil - seems to run pretty smoothly now.

Only problem now is the 'Black Smoke' I get on acceleration - so I have been reading up ref “Mass flow” (MAF) sensor & “Exhaust gas recirculation” (EGR) sensor - but I have my doubts on that.

I only seem to get this problem after an initial few miles of slow running - say circa 20/25mph on a long road through the Village - 10 minutes.

If when I then get out onto the 50mph + road - acceleration can get considerable smoke for a minute or so after which all clears and seems not occur again on that particular journey.

By 'considerable' - I mean there sure is 'smoke' while it lasts - real black cloud.

It is almost as if the car builds it up during the slow running and then really 'clears it's throat' when I accelerate.

But it needs considerable Revs 3000+ and therefore Acceleration to manifest itself.

I could of course use the 'Tommy Cooper'( Great magician/commedian - now passed) remedy - 'Well don't do it then'. ( Accelerate.)

But I would much prefer to sort it if possible rather than chance blowing smoke in the face of the following Car at some stage.

Last point I am now in middle of a first application of 'Injector Cleaner' - 250 mlls to 40 litres Diesel - trying any aspect I can.

Before purchase I insisted upon a new MOT - passed just fine - ??

If any ideas? Grateful.

Best Rgds to All.

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi,
If the egr valve is sticking partially open when the turbo kicks in it sucks in more air and blows it through egr valve and out of exhaust. The extra air sucked in is measured by the maf sensor , ecu add fuel not knowing air is going out of exhaust rather than into cylinders. That would cause black smoke.
Can't explain why it would appear to clear later but suggest checking egr valve.

How many electrical wires connect to your eye valve?
Do you have an engine code reader.

Jack

 

[portland_bill]

Diesels like to do work, so a low mileage example is likely to be full of soot. Good to dose with injector cleaner. Turbo control may be a bit fouled up, and the EGR as said above. Give the EGR a good clean and make sure it operates and fully closes. That and the injector cleaner are likely to fix the issue. Once the cleaning is done, give it a good blast on a quiet road, it'll thank you for it.

 

[Factseeker]

Hi,
If the egr valve is sticking partially open when the turbo kicks in it sucks in more air and blows it through egr valve and out of exhaust. The extra air sucked in is measured by the maf sensor , ecu add fuel not knowing air is going out of exhaust rather than into cylinders. That would cause black smoke.
Can't explain why it would appear to clear later but suggest checking egr valve.

How many electrical wires connect to your eye valve?
Do you have an engine code reader.

Jack

Hi Jack,

Thnxs for that - I just purchased the cables to use with MultiECUScan - now I have tested and know I can connect to Doblo ECU - will be installing their software - so hoping sometime next few days should be able to see a lot more of what is happening.

No idea what an eye valve is - I am a software technician - have been into Car maintenance for number of years - but with older cars with less electronics.
I will get back when I have the scanning up and going.

 

[Factseeker]

Diesels like to do work, so a low mileage example is likely to be full of soot. Good to dose with injector cleaner. Turbo control may be a bit fouled up, and the EGR as said above. Give the EGR a good clean and make sure it operates and fully closes. That and the injector cleaner are likely to fix the issue. Once the cleaning is done, give it a good blast on a quiet road, it'll thank you for it.

Hi Bill,

I used to go diving at Portland.

I know where the MAF is - made its' aquaintance when installing new air filter but the EGR is another matter - somewhere around the exhaust manifold I presume?

While in contact I have found very little on maintenance - I could do with a really good workshop manaul - can you recommend - a sort of Haynes type thing etc. hopefully with diagrams indicating location of main poins.

 

[Factseeker]

Diesels like to do work, so a low mileage example is likely to be full of soot. Good to dose with injector cleaner. Turbo control may be a bit fouled up, and the EGR as said above. Give the EGR a good clean and make sure it operates and fully closes. That and the injector cleaner are likely to fix the issue. Once the cleaning is done, give it a good blast on a quiet road, it'll thank you for it.

Just read through your experience list - lucky to have you there - as they say 'You're the man'.
I had a full socket set purchased for a birthday many years and with that and a Haynes manual managed to hold a renault espace together for 19+ years and 350k+ miles. But it was single point LPG - this is my first Diesel ever.
The Espace? Sadly it gave a final 'groan' - rolled over and 'died'.

Best Rgds

 

[portland_bill]

Hi Bill,

I used to go diving at Portland.

I know where the MAF is - made its' aquaintance when installing new air filter but the EGR is another matter - somewhere around the exhaust manifold I presume?

While in contact I have found very little on maintenance - I could do with a really good workshop manaul - can you recommend - a sort of Haynes type thing etc. hopefully with diagrams indicating location of main poins.

I grew up on Portland, never went diving, never very good in the water, as unlke most humans, I don't float on the surface, but just below it, making breathing difficult. Diving, I suppose would have been easy, coming up again, perhaps more difficult.

The EGR (Exhaust gas recirculation) valve should be reasonably easy to find. Somewhere very close to the engine, on the exhaust manifold probably, is a lump with a lever control of some sort, and an outlet back into the intake. A certain amount of exhaust gas recirculation does in fact help combustion, as well as helping clean up the emissions, but the valve, sat in the exhaust, tends to clog up with soot. They can usually be dismantled and cleaned. Some choose to blank them off, but that should then fail an MOT. Best to make it work properly.

For a manual, look here: https://www.fiatforum.com/downloads/doblo-elearn.345/
Hit the orange Download button, top right and store the files somewhere. The files then need to be combined into a single ISO image (one file for a CD). Then it gets copied onto a CD, and gives you the factory manual. Somewhere there are instructions. I've done a few, but always waste on CD with a duff file, so be prepared to practice. I've not got time now, but will look again later and see if I can remember how.

 

[Factseeker]

Thnxs for your input and time - have a good day.

 

[portland_bill]

I have successfully created a Doblo repair manual CD. Send me your address by Private Message, (don't publish it on here,) and I'll send it to you.
Meanwhile, here is the description of the system.

 

[Factseeker]

I have successfully created a Doblo repair manual CD. Send me your address by Private Message, (don't publish it on here,) and I'll send it to you.
Meanwhile, here is the description of the system.

HI Bill,

All very kind - thank you,

Been out of circulation for last days due to bad cold.

In fact today is first day I was going to look at that manual you pointed out - had found some free software tools to stick it all together.

But seems that you got there ahead of me and yes the .pdf illustration is perfect.

I had found the EGR just before illness - but come the next dry day after that when I intended to take it apart I was 'down and out'.

Last point as I am new to thie site - can you direct me to where I can send you that private email please.

Best RGds.
Steve

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

New to this Forum and also new to the Fiat Doblo - recently purchased - Fiat Doblo 2005 1.9 JTD 119_,223_ ACTIVE

I went for the Car for practicality sake and I only need for this next year but if I have reasonably trouble free running may well stick with it - certainly 'practical'.

It looks from the MOTs and Logs that it has really done very limited mileage (2,500 pa) each past 3 years. Interior & Bodywork reflects that - really good condition.

Only fault on running was some ocassional slight hesitation at 1,800 Revs - especially in 3rd gear.

I changed Oil and all Filters - Fuel - Air - Oil - seems to run pretty smoothly now.

Only problem now is the 'Black Smoke' I get on acceleration - so I have been reading up ref “Mass flow” (MAF) sensor & “Exhaust gas recirculation” (EGR) sensor - but I have my doubts on that.

I only seem to get this problem after an initial few miles of slow running - say circa 20/25mph on a long road through the Village - 10 minutes.

If when I then get out onto the 50mph + road - acceleration can get considerable smoke for a minute or so after which all clears and seems not occur again on that particular journey.

By 'considerable' - I mean there sure is 'smoke' while it lasts - real black cloud.

It is almost as if the car builds it up during the slow running and then really 'clears it's throat' when I accelerate.

But it needs considerable Revs 3000+ and therefore Acceleration to manifest itself.

I could of course use the 'Tommy Cooper'( Great magician/commedian - now passed) remedy - 'Well don't do it then'. ( Accelerate.)

But I would much prefer to sort it if possible rather than chance blowing smoke in the face of the following Car at some stage.

Last point I am now in middle of a first application of 'Injector Cleaner' - 250 mlls to 40 litres Diesel - trying any aspect I can.

Before purchase I insisted upon a new MOT - passed just fine - ??

If any ideas? Grateful.

Best Rgds to All.

I used to own the same model with 200K on it, I had the black smoke issue when I bought it and went down the sensor route , but on checking closer on mine the fault was the wiring plug to the MAF sensor. By by checking/probing the wires a few inches back I found different readings to that at the sensor, so by repairing those wires and connectors problem was solved. Failing that check you are getting full turbo boost into the engine, no air leaks etc
As old school mechanic, black smoke is either too much fuel or not enough air, hence to tune an old diesel you increased the fuel adjustment at the injector pump so it black smoked and then increased the boost pressure at the turbo until the black smoke went away in simple terms. Modern cars do all this via the ECU etc.
In the past I replaced a 150hp Volvo Penta V6 petrol engine with a Fiat Ducatto 2.8 SOFIM diesel engine rated at 122hp in 1970s cabin cruiser. Original performance was 30 Knots at 10 gallons to the hour on 5star petrol by adjusting as I mentioned and with a suitable propeller I achieved 26 Knots and 4 gallons to the hour, all on a shoe string that modern ECU engines would cost much more to do. So much for progress!

 

[Factseeker]

Hi Bugsymike,

Having just got my hands on the Car and it being my very first Diesel - I spent a bit of time just gazing at the mass of stuff under the bonnet.

Want to get to 'know' it before grim Winter months.

My previous car an ancient Renault Espace - ran on LPG - single point - not much less complicated than that.

I am not a Mechanic (Computer Software) but have learnt a fair bit over past X years since retirement - with my 'trusty' socket set in hand etc.

So first thing I did on the Doblo was replace all Filters including Fuel.

I noticed that the AirFilter box lid was adrift with one of the three fixings lugs snapped - therefore allowing maybe too much air?

I fixed that - defintely a correct fix.

I then noticed that the MAF was very loose - so loose in fact that I had knocked it out with my hand as I groped around.

Seems a very weak fixing into an oblong hole in rubber tubing just the engine side after the Air Filter - I have fixed that back in with a dab of Sealer to hold it.

I still get the smoke if I really put my foot down but having done that the once it clears and does not come back maybe for the whole trip or at least maybe half hour of running.

It seems to me that some slow driving for maybe 10 minutes in Traffic 'primes' the system and then foot down ( really down) and I can get my 'belch' of black smoke - by black I mean really black.

Almost as if 'crud' builds up and needs to be cleared with a 'blast' on the peddle.

In any event I have just received my copy of MultieScan - so will play over the weekend with LapTop check all out - maybe a clue?

But whatever transpires I have to say that over all very happy with purchase thus far - ticks over beautifully - accelerates well and plenty of room - which was reason for buy.


Thnxs for your help, comment, morale support. ;o)

Best Rgds

 

[portland_bill]

I noticed that the AirFilter box lid was adrift with one of the three fixings lugs snapped - therefore allowing maybe too much air?

I then noticed that the MAF was very loose - so loose in fact that I had knocked it out with my hand as I groped around.

Seems a very weak fixing into an oblong hole in rubber tubing just the engine side after the Air Filter - I have fixed that back in with a dab of Sealer to hold it.

The engine will draw as much, or as little air as it needs. The airbox will make no difference to that. However, any leaks at the airbox, might, depending on where they are, allow unfiltered air into the engine. How big a problem that is will depend on your local air quality. Dust particles are abrasive. Any damage will be insignificant and probably unmeasurable, so no worries.

Depending on the airflow path, if there are sensors in or before the airbox, leaks may confuse the engine management, if more air is flowing that expected, so sealing it is a good thing.

The MAF should be a snug fit in its hoses, and secured with a clip. I'm thinking your clip is missing, as sealer should not be necessary. Any air sucked in after the MAF will not be measured, changing the air/fuel ratio. Get a clip on that, it might be the fix. A cable tie might be suitable.

 

[bugsymike]

The engine will draw as much, or as little air as it needs. The airbox will make no difference to that. However, any leaks at the airbox, might, depending on where they are, allow unfiltered air into the engine. How big a problem that is will depend on your local air quality. Dust particles are abrasive. Any damage will be insignificant and probably unmeasurable, so no worries.

Depending on the airflow path, if there are sensors in or before the airbox, leaks may confuse the engine management, if more air is flowing that expected, so sealing it is a good thing.

The MAF should be a snug fit in its hoses, and secured with a clip. I'm thinking your clip is missing, as sealer should not be necessary. Any air sucked in after the MAF will not be measured, changing the air/fuel ratio. Get a clip on that, it might be the fix. A cable tie might be suitable.

As usual I concur with portland_bill, even in a very dust free area air filters especially on diesels draw in a large volume so good filtering is important for engine life, you only have to turn an old filter cartridge over to see the work it is doing. Modern cars with ECUs are very sensitive to air leaks etc. that effect the information the sensors send to the ECU. Once you have stopped all the obvious faults I would check the wiring in the area around the MAF sensor with a Multitester and probe the readings going in and out of that sensor especially as you say it was loose and poorly fitted. The one I owned had done 200K+ and was chucking out buckets of black smoke even though everything appeared to be correctly fitted or replaced, but at the end of the day it was the connection at the MAF sensor.

 

[Factseeker]

As usual I concur with portland_bill, even in a very dust free area air filters especially on diesels draw in a large volume so good filtering is important for engine life, you only have to turn an old filter cartridge over to see the work it is doing. Modern cars with ECUs are very sensitive to air leaks etc. that effect the information the sensors send to the ECU. Once you have stopped all the obvious faults I would check the wiring in the area around the MAF sensor with a Multitester and probe the readings going in and out of that sensor especially as you say it was loose and poorly fitted. The one I owned had done 200K+ and was chucking out buckets of black smoke even though everything appeared to be correctly fitted or replaced, but at the end of the day it was the connection at the MAF sensor.

Hi,

Special thnxs to both yourself and Portlandbill.

I got myself the MultiECUscan software and ran it up for the first time today - apart from a couple of queries I have now asked them all went well.

I cleared Errors for a 'clean slate' and will monitor from now on - only point so far is that my local Fiat garage had it is an 8 Valve from the Reg No and the MScan says quite definitely a 16 Valve.

MScan test of the EGR indicated it is opening closing as it should.

Only other point to make is after the usual 'belch' of smoke this morning - could not make it happen again on a 20 mile trip - so things looking up.

Thnxs for all.

 

[Factseeker]

I have successfully created a Doblo repair manual CD. Send me your address by Private Message, (don't publish it on here,) and I'll send it to you.
Meanwhile, here is the description of the system.

Hi,

Thnxs to previous comments my learning curve has steepened considerably ref the Doblo and Diesel engines generally for that matter.

MultieECUscan Software suggests I have a 16 Valve 1.9 JTD 223 Doblo 'Active' - previously informed it was an 8 Valve 'species'.

Things shaping up in all ways - Black Smoke much less on acceleration - only on high Revs at start of a trip.

Dismantled EGR and cleaned etc.

Main problem now is that although the Car is classed as a year 2005 it seems to have first put 'rubber to road' in mid 2006.

That seems to put the car right in the middle of a change in Pollution Regs etc with introduction of DPF / Catalyst Exhausts etc.

On that basis even if the car was a 2005 at manufacture but not actually registerd until 2006 possibly it had to be 'upgraded to any mew Regs??

Initially I thought this meant a DPF & Cat - but a visual underneath the car leads me to suspect the Car might only have a Cat Pot ( See Attached Image ) - the MultieECUscan software stubbornly refuses to find eiher.

Plus item on Car has an electrical Senser into the side of what I can see of the Cylinder ( Lambda??) the image shows nothing.

Car has a 'middle' Pot on the exhaust line - I initially thought that might be the DPF but my researches suggest not.

Apart from going to the local Fiat garage that got the number of Valves wrong is there a sure fire way to check this out.

Best Rgds

 

[bugsymike]

Hopefully with Bills help you will be able to clarify engine, I have not used the Multiscan software as I only use a Linux PC, but have heard nothing but praise for it. The Doblo 1.9 I had was registered April 2005 1910cc Turbo Intercooled 8 valve 105Hp ? It had a basic particulate filter nothing else. As a matter of interest if you go on Gov. Tax with reg. number, mine shows 157 g/km under CO2 emissions, presumably if yours is slightly later and a 16 valve with better emission equipment then your CO2 readings will be lower.
Manufacture and Reg. dates can be miles apart, a Mazda dealership I worked at sold a B1600 Pick up and when we, in the workshop needed a part for it we had problems until we discovered it was two years older and had been sat in the showroom all that time, new owner was not amused!

 

[portland_bill]

Putting the VIN into ePER (Fiat parts lookup system) will often give more detail about the spec. (Sometimes not, depending on what is in there) If you cannot get the forum ePER to work, send me your full VIN (by private message only, don't publish it here) and I'll see what I can get.

Regulations about build spec usually have timeframes built in to avoid old stock falling foul. The regs usually say something along the lines of, 'built after ..., or registered after ...'. This allows vehicles built before a date to be registered any time before the later date. There is often a lot of 'pre-registered' or 'ex-demo' vehicles available just before the final cutoff, as old stock is registered to avoid costly upgrades.
To avoid such expensive issues, manufacturers will usually upgrade the specs of a vehicle long before any regulatory dates, although Ford tend to leave things to the last minute, balancing risk against cost of adding stuff early.