Technical crunching gears when changing up

[Fayray]

I took my patchwork 500 for a nice drive to a country pub yesterday, the first drive since fitting the Accuspark ignition, and she ran beautifully, such a joy to drive. However, she crunches a bit on the up-changes and I'm wondering what might be causing this. Is it likely to be a clutch adjustment?

 

[the hobbler]

Yes Andrew, clutch adjustment would be the 1st thing that I would look at. If you have a standard 500 gear-box (as against a 126 'box with synchros), "up" changes should be just about noiseless; even when trying to win a pint of beer and doing them without the use of the clutch.
It is a bit of a wriggle adjusting the clutch with the car still on the ground, so see if your local friendly garage will allow you to use their ramp or put it up on stands--do NOT go under the car with it on a jack--EVER. The clutch is adjusted by moving the large nut on the end of the cable (it has a 10mm 'lock-nut' holding it in place). The amount of 'free-travel' at the clutch pedal should be between 35mm and 40mm (1-3/8in to 1-9/16in in real measurements). The more you screw the big nut (17mm) IN, the more you REDUCE the free-play at the pedal.

 

[BambinoClassic]

Ah come on, can’t you guys adjust the clutch without ramps OR a jack

 

[Fayray]

Yes Andrew, clutch adjustment would be the 1st thing that I would look at. If you have a standard 500 gear-box (as against a 126 'box with synchros), "up" changes should be just about noiseless; even when trying to win a pint of beer and doing them without the use of the clutch.
It is a bit of a wriggle adjusting the clutch with the car still on the ground, so see if your local friendly garage will allow you to use their ramp or put it up on stands--do NOT go under the car with it on a jack--EVER. The clutch is adjusted by moving the large nut on the end of the cable (it has a 10mm 'lock-nut' holding it in place). The amount of 'free-travel' at the clutch pedal should be between 35mm and 40mm (1-3/8in to 1-9/16in in real measurements). The more you screw the big nut (17mm) IN, the more you REDUCE the free-play at the pedal.

thanks for that. I'll give it a go and report back

 

[F123C]

Ah come on, can’t you guys adjust the clutch without ramps OR a jack

Stick 2 wheels up on a high kerb(curb) and slide underneath.

:idea:
Easiest way is to send a nipper underneath.
Make them earn their keep.

AL.

 

[fiat500]

I took my patchwork 500 for a nice drive to a country pub yesterday, the first drive since fitting the Accuspark ignition, and she ran beautifully, such a joy to drive. However, she crunches a bit on the up-changes and I'm wondering what might be causing this. Is it likely to be a clutch adjustment?

Try the low-tech solution...Tony Vitesse explained it best quite some time ago:

Pedal down, into neutral, pedal up. Pedal down, into next gear, pedal up. All executed methodically but smartly.

 

[gordinir8]

The ritual of 500 gear shifting.

 

[the hobbler]

All my previous cinquecentos (3) have been 'as factory' with the non-synchro gearboxes--it is only in my current car that I enjoy the pleasures of having synchromesh in the gearbox. With a properly adjusted clutch and gear-linkage, UP changes can be executed without the clutch silently--it is just a matter of getting the engine/gearbox speeds matched and going through the gear-change gently. I have had to drive home with NO clutch operation because the clutch cable had snapped and I once won a pint of beer (oh the things we did for a free pint in our spotty yoof) by driving from south of Croydon to Westminster bridge without use of the clutch pedal except for an emergency and pulling away from stationary (light, zebra crossings etc. I still think that 'fayray's' problem is clutch adjustment. If it was gear-linkage misadjustment, he would have the noise problem on all gear-changes.

 

[Fayray]

I'm still mastering the art of of the down-change but I'm not too bad at it and I actually enjoy the challenge (I should point out that my first and fourth cars were 500s so you'd think I'd have some clue - it was over 30 years ago though) but the up-change feels like something isn't right and I'm hoping it'll be the clutch adjustment.
Now, I'm assuming if I get under the car (safely) it'll be obvious which is the clutch cable? Because neither of my manuals or the original handbook show clearly where it is.

 

[fiat500]

I still think that 'fayray's' problem is clutch adjustment. If it was gear-linkage misadjustment, he would have the noise problem on all gear-changes.

I think that's probably why up to now, no-one has mentioned the need for gear-linkage adjustment nor contradicted that it might be clutch-cable adjustment which is needed. Incidentally, wouldn't a slack or stretched cable make it difficult to smoothly select any gear whether going up (as specified) or more particularly, down the gears?

 

[Vitesse]

Try the low-tech solution...Tony Vitesse explained it best quite some time ago:

Pedal down, into neutral, pedal up. Pedal down, into next gear, pedal up. All executed methodically but smartly.

You misquote me. I said “Drive it like you stole it!” But doing all of the above at the same time.

 

[the hobbler]

As you look under the car Andrew, the clutch cable is, looking from the REAR, on the left side of the gearbox. Sicking out of the bell-housing on the left side is a bar with a cable going through it. The 'bar' is the clutch release lever. After the clutch cable has gone through the release lever there is a large (17mm) nut and a little 10mm nut locked together. With a spanner on the large nut (to hold it still), undo the 10mm nut a little bit--just enough to free off the 17mm nut. If you have (as I suspect) excessi free-play in the cable, do up the 17mm nut so that it tightens up against the release lever and takes the slack out of the clutch operating cable. After you have tightened it a little bit, check how much movement you have at the clutch PEDAL until the floppiness stops--it should only have 35-40mm slack. When you are happy with the adjustment, again hold the 17mm nut steady whilst you tighten up the 10mm nut against it. This will lock the adjustment.
Are you "double-de-clutching" on both up and down shifts, or just on down shifts?

 

[fiat500]

You misquote me. I said “Drive it like you stole it!” But doing all of the above at the same time.

I didn't misquote you I invented my own phrase and put words in your mouth. (sorry)
But you did explain double-declutching more clearly than I had seen done before.

 

[Fayray]

That's very helpful, thanks. I'm not double de clutching on the upshifts, didn't think it was necessary Until recently I had 2 500s and the other one was very smooth with the upshifts

As you look under the car Andrew, the clutch cable is, looking from the REAR, on the left side of the gearbox. Sicking out of the bell-housing on the left side is a bar with a cable going through it. The 'bar' is the clutch release lever. After the clutch cable has gone through the release lever there is a large (17mm) nut and a little 10mm nut locked together. With a spanner on the large nut (to hold it still), undo the 10mm nut a little bit--just enough to free off the 17mm nut. If you have (as I suspect) excessi free-play in the cable, do up the 17mm nut so that it tightens up against the release lever and takes the slack out of the clutch operating cable. After you have tightened it a little bit, check how much movement you have at the clutch PEDAL until the floppiness stops--it should only have 35-40mm slack. When you are happy with the adjustment, again hold the 17mm nut steady whilst you tighten up the 10mm nut against it. This will lock the adjustment.
Are you "double-de-clutching" on both up and down shifts, or just on down shifts?

 

[fiat500]

That's very helpful, thanks. I'm not double de clutching on the upshifts, didn't think it was necessary:

It is usually easier to go up the gears without using any special technique, but even a slight pause in neutral between gears will help. The level and viscosity of the gear-oil will afford the ease of gear-shifting, as will the air-temperature and how hot the oil is; an optimally filled box will help with the latter.

 

[fiat500]

Accidental post.???????

 

[Fayray]

Thanks. I'll check the gearbox oil level too.

It is usually easier to go up the gears without using any special technique, but even a slight pause in neutral between gears will help. The level and viscosity of the gear-oil will afford the ease of gear-shifting, as will the air-temperature and how hot the oil is; an optimally filled box will help with the latter.

 

[Fayray]

Ok, I know this was a while ago but the problem still isn't fixed. I changed the gear oil and it did seem to be on the low side. This improved things but didn't cure the problem. I adjusted the clutch but ran out of thread on the cable so I added a spacer to give more adjustment. But then I found I didn't have the required free play at the top of the pedal and I'm still getting crunchy changes. As the car (and presumably gear oil)get hotter the crunching gets worse, particularly 3rd to 4th.
Now I was prepared to live with it and try and improve my gear changing skills but then I went and drove a beautiful (and by beautiful I mean completely original, unrestored and slightly tatty 1962 500D) and the gear change was sensational compared to my much younger F. So is there anything else I should be looking into? There is a small oil leak which I assumed was from the sump. This could be from the gearbox so thought about topping up the fluid but then found the filler plug that I easily removed before now won't budge:bang:, but I'll work on that.

 

[the hobbler]

Very interesting that you have mentioned that you ran out of thread on the clutch adjustment----in all the years that i have worked on 500s,I have never run into that. I realise that it is impossible to check without removing the engine, but, has the release-bearing been renewed at some time, and the incorrect one fitted?---the 500 and 126 release bearings are different. Also, the clutch pressure plates are different---was the correct one fitted? there should be between 35 and 40mm (1:3/8 and 1:9/16in) free-play at the pedal.

 

[fiat500]

Very interesting that you have mentioned that you ran out of thread on the clutch adjustment----in all the years that i have worked on 500s,I have never run into that.

...I have! I think we worked out it might have been a cable meant for a Giardiniera. I'm on my third different gearbox/clutch combination using the same cable with spacers, but it works fine.