Technical Cruise Control shuts down as soon as I start driving. MES troubleshooting ongoing...

[Simonini]

Hey everybody!

New here since I lately bought a second-hand 2020 Ducato L3H2 2.3 140 EURO6d-temp with Ad Blue.
Very happy with the "new" van, drives amazing! Comfy and very spacious, but it has some electric gremlins, like with the originally fitted Cruise Control...

When I start the van, I can set the CC. Green light in the dashboard illuminates and I get the message that the CC is activated. As soon as I start driving, the CC de-activates itself, green light goes out and message shows CC is de-activated. From this moment on, I can no longer activate the CC. I have to shut down the van, restart it, and then the story repeats itself.

As I suspected a problem with a cluth- or brake-switch, I connected with MES and checked the signals. Brake-switch was fine, but clutch-switch wouldn't activate when I pushed the clutch. I removed the clutch-switch (partnr. 519057040) and measured its internal resistance. Since this part is a potentio-meter, I measured the complete stroke over all legs:
- 1-3 = 10.2kOhm fixed
- 1-2 = 5.7kOhm -> 10.2kOhm
- 2-3 = 10.2kOhm -> 5.7kOhm

I don't know the normal/new values of the POT-meter, but this seem like normal values to me..?
Does anybody know what the normal/new values of the POT-meter should be? Or have an idea about why MES doesn't show an ACTIVE clutch when I push the pedal? Or why the CC shuts down as soon as I start driving?

Thanks in advance for some fresh idea's

 

[the green vanper]

Hello,

In every car I've driven the cruise control works ONLY over 30 km/h. As far as I remember this information is in the x250 owners' manual. I assume it would be the same in the 2020 model.

Can you test over 30 km/h?

 

[varesecrazy]

Hello,

In every car I've driven the cruise control works ONLY over 30 km/h. As far as I remember this information is in the x250 owners' manual. I assume it would be the same in the 2020 model.

Can you test over 30 km/h?

But the icon will remain lit..

I am suspecting a system issue

Favourites are Vehicle speed not matching the CC requirements

Either an ABS Pickup, or geartrain speed error

 

[Simonini]

Hello,

In every car I've driven the cruise control works ONLY over 30 km/h. As far as I remember this information is in the x250 owners' manual. I assume it would be the same in the 2020 model.

Can you test over 30 km/h?

As soon as I start driving, the CC de-activates itself, green light goes out and message shows CC is de-activated. From this moment on, I can no longer activate the CC, not even above 30 km/h. I have to shut down the van, restart it, and then the story repeats itself.

 

[Simonini]

But the icon will remain lit..

I am suspecting a system issue

Favourites are Vehicle speed not matching the CC requirements

Either an ABS Pickup, or geartrain speed error

Shouldn't I be getting a OBD-error for this vehicle speed-mismatch?
I can probably try to do a live-log with some wheel-pickup-speeds.
Is it possible to read the live-data from all four ABS-pickups with MES?

 

[the green vanper]

But the icon will remain lit..

I am suspecting a system issue

Favourites are Vehicle speed not matching the CC requirements

Either an ABS Pickup, or geartrain speed error

I'd however test activating it over 30 km/h to be sure. It costs nothing.

 

[Simonini]

I'd however test activating it over 30 km/h to be sure. It costs nothing.

It is not possible to activate the CC as soon as I start driving, not even above 30 km/h. All I can do, is stop the van, shut it down and restart it.

 

[the green vanper]

Shouldn't I be getting a OBD-error for this vehicle speed-mismatch?
I can probably try to do a live-log with some wheel-pickup-speeds.
Is it possible to read the live-data from all four ABS-pickups with MES?

On the x290 in the ABS module I can see those parameters (there are of course others, too):

They can be read live and displayed on the graph during driving.

 

[the green vanper]

It is not possible to activate the CC as soon as I start driving, not even above 30 km/h. All I can do, is stop the van, shut it down and restart it.

You wrote earlier that it switches off when you activate it and start driving. You never wrote you tried activating it only above 30 km/h.
What I was asking for was do not touch it while stationnary, drive off and activate it only above 30 km/h.

But yes, there could be a problem in the system, I'm only trying to eliminate a basic cause coming from a misunderstanding of how the system works

 

[the green vanper]

This is the description of how the system works on the x250. It can be different on the 2020 model, but I don't have access to newer documentation

Memorizing the speed selected

To activate the operation of the Cruise Control:

1 - operate the ring nut switch (3) to the ON position;

2 - let the vehicle reach the desired speed; it should be remembered that the Cruise Control can only be activated for speeds above 30 km/h. It is advisable to engage it in fourth gear or higher where the road conditions allow the speed set to be maintained safely.

The warning light in the instrument panel should come on constantly with the signal coming from the engine management control unit, via the CAN, indicating the Cruise Control operating status. The warning light going out indicates that the system is deactivated.
Variation in the speed memorized

There are two ways of increasing the speed memorized:

Operate the Cruise Control lever, pushing it upwards (position +). The speed programmed is increased directly in this way. For each brief activation the change should be 1 Km/h, whilst if the lever is kept pressed the speed varies continuously.

Press the accelerator pedal until the new desired speed is reached and memorize the new speed reached.

There are two ways of decreasing the speed memorized:

Operate the Cruise Control lever, pushing it downwards (position -). The speed programmed is decreased directly in this way. For each brief activation the change should be 1 Km/h, whilst if the lever is kept pressed the speed varies continuously.

Switch the device off, slow down and turn it back on once the new desired speed has been reached.

Resume button function

This function makes it possible, by pressing the button (1), to return the vehicle to the last speed value memorized if the Cruise Control has been switched off in certain circumstances (for example, by operating the clutch or braking).
Deactivation of the cruise control

The Cruise Control is deactivated by the user by:

operating the ring nut switch to the OFF position;

switching the engine off;

operating the clutch pedal or brake pedal (in such cases, the last speed achieved is stored and can be recalled by pressing the Resume button).

having memorized the last speed reached, it can be recalled by pressing the Resume button;

vehicle speed below the minimum permitted (about 30 km/h) or above the maximum permitted.



If the lever is operated without using the clutch, consistency between the engine rpm and the vehicle speed starts to fail; in all cases, pressing the Resume button allows the system to be reactivated.

Activating the accelerator with the Cruise Control activated: by pressing the accelerator (for example to overtake) the Cruise Control system allows a momentary increase in the speed of the vehicle being momentarily deactivated, but as soon as the accelerator pedal is no longer pressed, the system reactivates the speed setting memorized.


The recognition of the gear engaged is carried out by comparing the vehicle speed with the engine speed with the clutch engaged.

The Cruise Control is automatically deactivated if:

accidental or incorrect operation of the buttons on the lever takes place;

the acceleration is above the calibrated limit (e.g. steep descent);

the deceleration is above a calibrated limit (e.g. the gear selector lever is operated without using the clutch);

there is a fault in the system;

the ABS, ASR or ESP systems intervene.

The system turns off automatically when the signals used by the Cruise Control software are incorrect because they are due to component defects:

vehicle speed signal;

accelerator pedal potentiometer;

brake switch plausibility;

clutch switch plausibility;

Cruise control switch plausibility and Resume key;

Cruise switch plausibility and speed increase or decrease lever positions.

The Cruise Control system is also deactivated if errors occur in components that impair engine operation, namely:

engine management control unit;

engine rpm sensor;

injectors;

high pressure system components.



A serious malfunction of the engine management system of the Cruise Control system that requires the Cruise Control system to become "blocked" (i.e. disabled until the vehicle is switched off) is defined as a "fault". A "problem" is an irregular situation (due to a malfunction or incorrect command by the user such as, for example, the simultaneous accidental activation of the Resume and (+) (-) buttons that causes the Cruise Control system to be deactivated but does not require it to be locked.

In the case of both faults and problems an error code that can be read using the diagnostic equipment is memorized, but these Cruise Control errors do not cause the engine failure warning light or the Cruise Control warning light to come on.

 

[Simonini]

You wrote earlier that it switches off when you activate it and start driving. You never wrote you tried activating it only above 30 km/h.
What I was asking for was do not touch it while stationnary, drive off and activate it only above 30 km/h.

But yes, there could be a problem in the system, I'm only trying to eliminate a basic cause coming from a misunderstanding of how the system works

My bad for the misunderstanding. It is not possible to activate the CC once I am driving above 30 km/h, not even when I didn't try to activate it on start-up. Originally I only tried to activate it above certain speeds (e.g. highways), only to find that it didn't wanted to activate. It was in the process of the troubleshooting that I discovered it was possible to activate the CC after start-up, only to find it de-activated once the van starts moving. This also ruled out the malfunction of the CC-switch itself, which was one of my first thoughts.

 

[Simonini]

On the x290 in the ABS module I can see those parameters (there are of course others, too):

View attachment 454651

They can be read live and displayed on the graph during driving.

So I just took some live-datareading with MES of all four wheel speed sensors, and they all behave like is expected. They follow acceleration simultaneously, and on fixed speed they show a maximum diviation of 0.5 km/h between all four of them. When in a corner, the inner wheels slow down and the outer wheels speed up.

I also live-tested both brake-switches/-contacts and they both responded simultaneously. Then to be sure I measured the contacts of the brakeswitch with a multimeter, and both the make- and breakcontact responded as expected.

I then once again tested the brake- and clutchpedal, to which the brakepedal responded as expected on input, but the clutchpedal just stays RELEASED, even if I push it to the floor.

Is it a possibility, after kilometers of wear and tear, that the values of the potentiometer are outside of a specified range to which the ECU normally responds? Sure would be handy to have some sort of reference-values for the clutch-sensor.

It might be worth mentioning that the SLD-speedlimiter does work, both activated right after start-up or above speeds of 30 km/h.

 

[Steve928]

On mine it was the clutch pedal position sensor turning the cruise control off.

Twice had an EML but no fault code about a minute after starting, while still manoeuvring off the drive.
Then some thousand or so miles later the CC starting disengaging. 2018-build van so no message on the dash.
Then next day an EML with code P0809. I didn't bother clearing it as we were our way home from holidays, but it cleared itself on the 5th. restart - so intermittent.

I just fitted a new switch and it's been fine since.
I still have the old part so I could take the same resistance measurements that you did if that would be helpful?

 

[jackwhoo]

So I just took some live-datareading with MES of all four wheel speed sensors, and they all behave like is expected. They follow acceleration simultaneously, and on fixed speed they show a maximum diviation of 0.5 km/h between all four of them. When in a corner, the inner wheels slow down and the outer wheels speed up.

I also live-tested both brake-switches/-contacts and they both responded simultaneously. Then to be sure I measured the contacts of the brakeswitch with a multimeter, and both the make- and breakcontact responded as expected.

View attachment 454657

I then once again tested the brake- and clutchpedal, to which the brakepedal responded as expected on input, but the clutchpedal just stays RELEASED, even if I push it to the floor.

View attachment 454658


Is it a possibility, after kilometers of wear and tear, that the values of the potentiometer are outside of a specified range to which the ECU normally responds? Sure would be handy to have some sort of reference-values for the clutch-sensor.

It might be worth mentioning that the SLD-speedlimiter does work, both activated right after start-up or above speeds of 30 km/h.

That is definitive clutch sensor not working.

In mes adjustments is there clutch pedal learn?

 

[jackwhoo]

By the way fix your external temperature problem it may after your dpf / add blue
Unless it really -20 or not reading because not selected in mes

 

[Simonini]

On mine it was the clutch pedal position sensor turning the cruise control off.

Twice had an EML but no fault code about a minute after starting, while still manoeuvring off the drive.
Then some thousand or so miles later the CC starting disengaging. 2018-build van so no message on the dash.
Then next day an EML with code P0809. I didn't bother clearing it as we were our way home from holidays, but it cleared itself on the 5th. restart - so intermittent.

I just fitted a new switch and it's been fine since.
I still have the old part so I could take the same resistance measurements that you did if that would be helpful?

Could be helpful. If we measure the same resistance, I know it is broken.

 

[jackwhoo]

Could be helpful. If we measure the same resistance, I know it is broken.

Get a new part , do your measurements then fit it. (-:

 

[Simonini]

That is definitive clutch sensor not working.

In mes adjustments is there clutch pedal learn?

I looked around in MES and found clutch pedal learn...

Performed the procedure, but it failed to execute...

When I then checked the parameters, it showed the pedal learning was LEARNED. It also showed 99,69% pedal position when fully pressed, and showed PRESSED-status. Yet the second contact showed RELEASED...

Then I checked MES for body parameters and found the clutch RELEASED when fully pressed...

Is there a second clutchpedal-contact I am not aware off? Or does the ECU take both contacts from the same switch?

 

[Simonini]

Get a new part , do your measurements then fit it. (-:

Will probably do. I already checked and I can get an aftermarket clutch-switch for around 30€. But I'm also not the type of guy to keep changing parts until the problem is eventually solved. I bought MES to avoid that type of "replace-until-repaired"-jobs.
And I also believe this is what a technical forum is all about. Helping each other with ones knowledge and previous experiences.
Moreover, if someone in the future has the same problem or symptoms, they can go a long way with everything mentioned here above.

 

[Simonini]

By the way fix your external temperature problem it may after your dpf / add blue
Unless it really -20 or not reading because not selected in mes

I selected the readings in MES for the external temperature. One is showing, the other stays at -40...
No idea what the second sensor is for?