Technical Engine shutting down while driving.

[Sionnaigh]

Hi,

I bought a Ducato 2.3 120 camper van approximately 10 years ago. In a ll that time I have experienced the same problem. The van will cut out completely while driving, it will re-start immediately but will invariably cut out again with 3 or 4 miles and some times will continue to do so until safely home ( once it cut out 6 times in a 32 mile journey).
As you will appreciate it is very frustrating and I cannot sell the van in good conscience in its current condition. The code usually states that it is caused by drop in fuel pressure.

This is a summary of what has been done to the van on the advice of various "experts". All the following have been replaced, low pressure fuel sensor (twice), diesel injectors, injector pump, pump in fuel tank, throttle body, ecu (second hand for the purposes of establishing if it was the ecu at fault). Various other bits now forgotten.

The problem is very specific. The van will cut out on winding country roads where you are changing gear and on and off the throttle. Invariably after a few gear changes while pressing the accelerator the van will die. it can be re-started immediately by turning on and off the ignition (no need to pull over). It has never cut out while towing our drift car on long journeys on the motorway nor with or without the trailer on motorways or dual carriageways. It has never cut out at low speeds i.e. below 30 mph on any road.

I am at my wits end with this van and the replacement ecu resulted in the same outcome.

Any and all advice would be welcome at this point.

 

[Victorguima]

I've never faced with that (cutting off the engine), but just one tip that make sense for me.
Check with a multimeter the voltage between the negative pole of the battery and the mass (car body). Even with the car stoped in idle rotation, the tension should be very low. Then, shake the negative cables.
I've already seen some rust and oxidation in terminal cable causing intermittent issues.

If not, could be some cable going to ecu, cutting of the power supply.

 

[Sionnaigh]

Hi,

I bought a Ducato 2.3 120 camper van approximately 10 years ago. In a ll that time I have experienced the same problem. The van will cut out completely while driving, it will re-start immediately but will invariably cut out again with 3 or 4 miles and some times will continue to do so until safely home ( once it cut out 6 times in a 32 mile journey).
As you will appreciate it is very frustrating and I cannot sell the van in good conscience in its current condition. The code usually states that it is caused by drop in fuel pressure.

This is a summary of what has been done to the van on the advice of various "experts". All the following have been replaced, low pressure fuel sensor (twice), diesel injectors, injector pump, pump in fuel tank, throttle body, ecu (second hand for the purposes of establishing if it was the ecu at fault). Various other bits now forgotten.

The problem is very specific. The van will cut out on winding country roads where you are changing gear and on and off the throttle. Invariably after a few gear changes while pressing the accelerator the van will die. it can be re-started immediately by turning on and off the ignition (no need to pull over). It has never cut out while towing our drift car on long journeys on the motorway nor with or without the trailer on motorways or dual carriageways. It has never cut out at low speeds i.e. below 30 mph on any road.

I am at my wits end with this van and the replacement ecu resulted in the same outcome.

Any and all advice would be welcome at this point.

Thanks for the advice. I should have stated that it is a 2007 model. I have checked all the connections and wiring as you suggest but I could not find any issues. Since posting I have seen another thread that stated that there was a recall of the 2007 model because of ignition switch problems which caused the exact same problems that I am experiencing.

I will look into this and let you know how I get on.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi Sionnaigh

Sorry to hear of your frustrations

I know that as a retired electronic engineer I am biased, but your problem could be electrical in nature. Problems with the air or fuel supply normally show up as rough running albeit briefly, but a sudden and complete failure of engine power suggests to me that for whatever reason the injectors are suddenly and temporarily not getting the command to function. There is also the suggestion that movement of the engine on its mounts on winding roads and with torque changes during gear changing may be triggering the issue.

If the fuel pressure drops below a threshold the engine will be cut off to protect it, but this will normally throw a fault code.

I suggest as a first step that you remove and replace the three fuses ( F17, F22 and F11 ) that supply the ECU, in case there is corrosion and tarnish in the fuseholders giving high resistance and voltage drop. A squirt of switch cleaner and pulling them in and out a few times may clean them up if there is no obvious sign of corrosion. The ECU can tolerate some voltage drop (it has to work during severe cold starts) but if the voltage dips too low it won't function. The ECU supplies the injectors which take a fair old current spike each time they actuate, so connections must be good.

Secondly, unless the gearbox to chassis ground strap has been replaced within the last few years I'd recommend fitting a brand new one, cleaning up the mounting points to bright metal when the old strap is off. These straps are notorious for corroding internally and going high resistance. By high I mean more than about one thousandth of an ohm, so forget about trying to test with ordinary multimeters etc, they will show good when in fact the strap is bad.

Since things come good after restarting, it would seem unlikely that a cable is shorting to ground as that would blow a fuse. However it's possible that a very brief short would allow any fuse to "ride through" and not have time to blow. A connection that is going high resistance or open circuit seems more likely. I guess you will have to do a detailed wiring inspection and bend and tug the looms with the engine running to see if you can provoke the fault, as already suggested.

I hope you get this sorted, it might turn out to be not electrical but that's the peril of armchair diagnosis !

 

[Anthony489]

To add to the above, see attached diagram of ECU power supply etc.

 

[Sionnaigh]

Hi Sionnaigh

Sorry to hear of your frustrations

I know that as a retired electronic engineer I am biased, but your problem could be electrical in nature. Problems with the air or fuel supply normally show up as rough running albeit briefly, but a sudden and complete failure of engine power suggests to me that for whatever reason the injectors are suddenly and temporarily not getting the command to function. There is also the suggestion that movement of the engine on its mounts on winding roads and with torque changes during gear changing may be triggering the issue.

If the fuel pressure drops below a threshold the engine will be cut off to protect it, but this will normally throw a fault code.

I suggest as a first step that you remove and replace the three fuses ( F17, F22 and F11 ) that supply the ECU, in case there is corrosion and tarnish in the fuseholders giving high resistance and voltage drop. A squirt of switch cleaner and pulling them in and out a few times may clean them up if there is no obvious sign of corrosion. The ECU can tolerate some voltage drop (it has to work during severe cold starts) but if the voltage dips too low it won't function. The ECU supplies the injectors which take a fair old current spike each time they actuate, so connections must be good.

Secondly, unless the gearbox to chassis ground strap has been replaced within the last few years I'd recommend fitting a brand new one, cleaning up the mounting points to bright metal when the old strap is off. These straps are notorious for corroding internally and going high resistance. By high I mean more than about one thousandth of an ohm, so forget about trying to test with ordinary multimeters etc, they will show good when in fact the strap is bad.

Since things come good after restarting, it would seem unlikely that a cable is shorting to ground as that would blow a fuse. However it's possible that a very brief short would allow any fuse to "ride through" and not have time to blow. A connection that is going high resistance or open circuit seems more likely. I guess you will have to do a detailed wiring inspection and bend and tug the looms with the engine running to see if you can provoke the fault, as already suggested.

I hope you get this sorted, it might turn out to be not electrical but that's the peril of armchair diagnosis !

Anthony,

Thanks for taking the time to post this comprehensive explanation. I feel you may be right. about it being electrical in nature. I will undertake the work you suggest and let you know how I turns out.

Thanks again.

S

 

[scsmyth]

Have you tried replacing the fuel filter? Experienced same issue and diesel had gelled up in the filter. Again low fuel oressure faults logged. New filter and away she went.

 

[Sionnaigh]

Have you tried replacing the fuel filter? Experienced same issue and diesel had gelled up in the filter. Again low fuel oressure faults logged. New filter and away she went.

Thanks for your advice. However this issue has been present for a number of years and the fuel filter has been replaced many times but to no avail.

 

[Sean camper]

Thanks for your advice. However this issue has been present for a number of years and the fuel filter has been replaced many times but to no avail.

Hi
Any update on this? I am having a the very same issue and at my wits end with trying to sort it.
Thanks
Sean

 

[Saltpeter]

Hi
Any update on this? I am having a the very same issue and at my wits end with trying to sort it.
Thanks
Sean

Hi Sean,
I'm having a very similar problem too. Engine just dies, no apparent reason, usually after 1 hour. Always re-starts and sometimes will be fine for weeks until it happens again. Did you or Sionnaigh ever get to the bottom of this problem?

 

[Ocwobio]

Have you had any diagnostics done? It may be worthwhile if you have an oldish (or can get one cheaply) windows laptop, and Multiecuan software, it's the only thing that really speaks fluent Fiat- don't bother with generic code readers, even with expensive one like Snap-on, whose owners will tell you how good they are! You may get away with the free demo version, depending on where the fault lies. Have a word with Gendan.co.uk they are almost weapons-grade helpful if you buy stuff off them, and will advise on bang for your buck. It's a learning curve, one you might prefer to avoid, but if you keep the van it may be money well spent. Live data streaming and capture may reveal something. If you do this, and get logs to upload on here, there are people who can interpret them for you. As it restarts after an off/on event, it suggests something is resetting, and is likely electronic rather than electrical or mechanical in nature. Or if not, may be heat related. Did you notice any change in different seasons? Also water ingress, same scenario?

 

[Saltpeter]

Have you had any diagnostics done? It may be worthwhile if you have an oldish (or can get one cheaply) windows laptop, and Multiecuan software, it's the only thing that really speaks fluent Fiat- don't bother with generic code readers, even with expensive one like Snap-on, whose owners will tell you how good they are! You may get away with the free demo version, depending on where the fault lies. Have a word with Gendan.co.uk they are almost weapons-grade helpful if you buy stuff off them, and will advise on bang for your buck. It's a learning curve, one you might prefer to avoid, but if you keep the van it may be money well spent. Live data streaming and capture may reveal something. If you do this, and get logs to upload on here, there are people who can interpret them for you. As it restarts after an off/on event, it suggests something is resetting, and is likely electronic rather than electrical or mechanical in nature. Or if n ot, may be heat related. Did you notice any change in different seasons? Also water ingress, same scenario?

Thanks, I think the same. It is unlikely to be mechanical as it resets straight away. It could be heat related as it never happens when the engine is cold, only after some time running perfectly. There is never any loss of power, just sudden fuel shutoff/engine shutdown.After re-start runs perfectly. Usually only happens once on any trip. The engine warning light comes on but resets overnight. Nightmare!

 

[Communicator]

For what its worth, I was wondering about the possibility of a crank sensor connection failure. Even momentary loss of signal would stop the engine.

 

[Saltpeter]

For what its worth, I was wondering about the possibility of a crank sensor connection failure. Even momentary loss of signal would stop the engine.

I thought this too, either the camshaft or crankshaft sensor momentary failure would stop the motor but why would it re-set immediately and give no further problem. Many other owners have replaced lots of parts with no positive outcome. Many others report a fuel pressure fault reading on diagnosis but again why would that suddenly disappear on re-start? It's a real brain teaser that seems to be insoluble.

 

[Communicator]

I thought this too, either the camshaft or crankshaft sensor momentary failure would stop the motor but why would it re-set immediately and give no further problem. Many other owners have replaced lots of parts with no positive outcome. Many others report a fuel pressure fault reading on diagnosis but again why would that suddenly disappear on re-start? It's a real brain teaser that seems to be insoluble.

With the Bosch ECUs that I am familiar with, the camshaft sensor is only used to determine the stroke, when starting. It would not stop the engine once started. The crankshaft sensor is vital. As regards restarting immediately, there could be just a momentary glitch. See the excellent post #4 by @Anthony489 for possible causes.