Technical clutch

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Technical clutch

Hi lads n lassies
Just to be complete I have ordered new circlip fiat dealer £3.60. also ordered a pair of pinchbolts for bottom ball joint £12.76 for the 2 when asked if they came with nuts he wanted £5.00 per nut. told no I will use old ones. I will take old nuts with me when picking up bolts. 2 new bottom ball joint rubbers as £4.60 on Ebay.
The drivers side driveshaft bearing appears to be pressed into bearing carrier so removed that side by undoing bearing carrier bracket from engine. It slipped straight out with this off.
Will be finally trying to remove gearbox tomorrow
Hope this all helps someone else
Gromit
 
Hi all
Big Thanks
Clutch bearing was the answer .
I finally got the gearbox off. See photo Too dark at moment to see the clutch and flywheel it's self . Gromit
 

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Hi Jock. Hi all.
I've cleaned it down the thrust bearing shaft and it looks in good nick.
Next problem I have is that in removing the short drive shaft I ( in my amatuer way) took off drive shaft plate bolts at gearbox end .The following photos show plate on plate removed and back of plate. My intention is to just bolt it back in place . But , should I do something to the bearing and should I put any type of sealer between plate and gearbox. No signs of any on mating surfaces. One more thing anyone know Torque of the four BolTS please.
Big thanks Gromit
 

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Looking at your pictures the first thing I would recommend would be to renew the lip seal. Won't cost much. As regards sealant. If you look at the first and second pics in your sequence you can see the oil return passage so, whatever you decide to do you don't want to block that up! however there's going to be a lot of oil around here so, I'd be very tempted to apply a light smear of silicone sealant around the mating faces of the outer flange - where the bolts go through - having first thoroughly cleaned and degreased the area. Only a thin bead though, you don't want it squeezing out into that oil return.
If anyone knows differently I'm happy to be corrected?
 
Thank you for your reply puggit .
Unfortunately I have no idea what the lip seal is . Is part of that bearing .?
Gromit
It's the rubber (synthetic rubber) seal which stops the oil leaking out around the shaft. My favourite supplier, Shop4parts, will almost certainly do them. Here are some which fit the Panda: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...erm=Fiat_Panda_II_(04_to_09)_1.2_8v_Oil_Seals
They come in a large range of sizes to suit different applications so you need to be careful to get exactly the right one - If you're not sure a 'phone call to S4p will sort it out for you (reg no and VIN are sometimes needed) By the way, I have no links with S4p other than being a very pleased customer. I've got some lying around in the workshop so I'll take a picture of both sides of one and post at the end of this. They are "simply" a push fit in the casing - can be quite tight sometimes. A large diameter socket is ideal for getting the new one back in absolutely square to the housing.

Here's quite a good video which shows what's involved on a Punto: Hope it helps.
 

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Oops, sorry, for some reason, no doubt my useless computer skills, the video starts playing just after he's shown us how to do the seal! Click and drag the red bar back to the left to see the seal replacement.

Again sorry for that. Actually it's quite a good video, showing him levering out the inner driveshaft joint. I'd say the difficulty he has with getting it out is pretty much the usual amount of "agro" - some can be much more stubborn though in which case you should rotate the shaft a bit then try again. if that doesn't work, rotate it a bit more and try again. In the end it will come out unless you're very unlucky. The big thing is not to just get really violent with it all in the one position. Rotating the shaft a wee bit gives the circlip a chance to reposition in relation to the splines.

PS. I'm also a bit reluctant to recommend reusing the ball joint pinch bolt - There are many situations in which I'd have no hesitation reusing nuts and bolts which look to be in good condition but I'm afraid I'm a "fierdy" with this one and always fit new.
 
Thanks for that . In a word .Brilliant!
I will persue the seal.

I now have yet another problem .photo shows old plate and new plate .
The width of the clutch plate drive surface. O
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n new plate is 25 mm wide. Old plate 35mm wide . Thinking of sending new clutch back as already had a problem with lack of a thrust bearing
Opinions please
 

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Thanks for that . In a word .Brilliant!
I will persue the seal.

I now have yet another problem .photo shows old plate and new plate .
The width of the clutch plate drive surface. OView attachment 401390View attachment 401390n new plate is 25 mm wide. Old plate 35mm wide . Thinking of sending new clutch back as already had a problem with lack of a thrust bearing
Opinions please
It's not unusual for small changes to take place in later production which then becomes backwards compatible with earlier vehicles but, even just visually, for me, there's too much of a difference going on here for me to feel "happy". The springs look different and maybe the central hub assembly (where the springs fit) is larger in diameter? I don't remember if you've mentioned if there's a new cover assembly with the kit? If there is have you tried offering it up to the flywheel to see if all the bolt holes line up. Most cover assemblies have at least a couple of locating dowels as well which ensure it's centralized when fitted and it's important they line up too. Have you tried sliding the friction plate onto the gearbox splined shaft? If it doesn't fit nicely then that's a definite no go! If you're using the old cover assembly check to see that the new plate - especially the hub and it's larger springs, will work with the old cover assembly. I'm relatively lucky as living in a big city gives me a choice of several motor factors which would be where I tend to buy this sort of thing. Gives me the option of taking the old unit with me when I go to get the new one. The new one you've been supplied with might be right though. Do you have a manufacturer and part identifying number? We could try cross matching them with other online suppliers or, if it's a "big name" One of my suppliers might give me an opinion.
 
Just browsing around. Don't know if this helps, but it might? https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=26908 the illustration isn't very detailed and maybe it's just a generic picture anyway? but, to me, the driven plate (friction plate) in the illustration looks a bit more like your old one? how does the cover assembly compare?

PS. I don't know if the S4p site functionality carries through to my link but if you go on the S4p website it gives you the option to enlarge the image by clicking on it. If you do this it can be clearly seen that the plate they are showing is a dead ringer for your old plate!
 
Of course I'm now thinking of other "things" it's advisable to do when installing your new clutch and what to do to the splines comes to mind.
We'll assume the new clutch plate has nice clean splines but it's worth meticulously cleaning the gearbox input shaft splines and then lubing them to ensure the new clutch plate doesn't bind later on. The trouble with greasing clutch splines is that folk often don't do a very good job, or don't bother at all, cleaning up the splines. They then either don't grease the splines at all or over grease them so that the grease spins off and contaminates the friction face of the new driven plate. Finally, even if they do use a lubricant, they use an unsuitable product - for instance Copper grease is a favourite.

So what to do? First off buy a manufacturer approved clutch grease. I use Sachs - a major manufacturer of clutches and it just happens it's what my local factor stocks - any make will do but make sure it's recommended for clutches so specially designed to resist very high temperature and being flung off. https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/sachs...065Anz1Ta9yUoJ5h-HqXrReQZndxSS9caAlsgEALw_wcB Then make sure the splines are clean of old clutch debris, oil and rust. I've found the best way to apply the grease is to apply a LIGHT coat of the grease to the splines on the gearbox - I use an old toothbrush - and work the new driven plate on and off the shaft a few times which spreads the grease into the splines on the driven plate. Working the driven plate on and off of the gearbox input shaft splines will cause a wee build up of grease on the ends of the splines of the driven (friction) plate splines so wipe this build up off. If you look into the splines there should be just a light smear of grease visible. So that's your new driven plate ready for installation. Look now at the gearbox input shaft and there's likely to be quite a bit of grease hanging around. So take a clean cloth, or bit of industrial paper towel (I have a roll of the blue stuff) and wrap it round the shaft then use it to wipe off all the grease that's lying around on the outside of the shaft/splines. This should leave a light coating of grease in the splines themselves (so what I mean is you don't clean out each individual spline). The object of the exercise is to leave a coating behind which will inhibit corrosion and keep the driven plate free to move linearly on the shaft to stop the lining binding against the flywheel without leaving behind great gobs of the stuff to get thrown off and contaminate the friction face. In this case less is definitely best.

Here's a couple of texts from the professionals:
and:

I've seen a lot of clutches ruined by well meaning people applying too much grease and there's not way to effectively clean the contaminated result so a new plate is the only answer - Or "Let it settle down sir, it just needs to bed in for a few thousand miles" by which time the unscrupulous will hope the customer has got used to his/her grabbing clutch and just doesn't pursue it.

By the way, you can expect a new clutch to feel different, sometimes quite different. higher or lower bite point for starters? - depending on how bad the old clutch has been - because the car's regular driver will have been compensating for the worn clutch and this has, to a greater or lesser extent, become what he/she expects it to feel like. However it shouldn't grab badly or slip under power. If it's behaving reasonably then definitely give it maybe a week or two of normal daily driving to bed the friction faces in before starting to worry something may be a real problem
 
Mrs J's watching something on the TV about people looking at houses they're not going to buy and I just can't take it! So I decided to read the whole text of the two clutch spline greasing texts I link to above. Ha Ha, really made me laugh to see they are still recommending, as my old college instructor did, to use an old toothbrush to work the grease into the splines! In fact a new tooth brush works better because it's bristles aren't bent! Does make subsequent tooth brushing an unpleasant experience though!
 
Edit: I can see now this thread has progressed a bit. However maybe it will be useful for putting the van together again?

Disconnecting the lower ball joint.

On a punto this can seem like an impossible job but...........

you need both wheels off the ground to release the antiroll bar as much as possible. open the split in the stub axel with a strong screw driver so that without forcing between the parts the wishbone can move lower without being held back. You then need to put a long bar in the holes of the wishbone and using as much weight as you can get on that bar lower the wishbone against the action of the roll bar so the ball joint clears the stub axel. Fairly simple if you have the long bar and have both wheels off the ground and you have opened up the stub axel where the bolt passes thru to retain the ball joint. With the wheels off the ground the wishbone has to be very powerfully forced down about one inch to release the ball joint.

Please do not use a scissor jack. You cannot inspect the nut that holds the screw and they can suddenly fail.

The whole of the front of the van needs to be properly supported. You can buy decent axel stands for a few pounds. Likewise a trolley jack
 
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Thanks all your advise is gratefully received.
The new clutch and flywheel I bought seems to throw up yet another couple of questions
Photos below show
First one behind flywheel.
No leaks at all looks good
Second one shows old flywheel hardly any wear just a couple of teeth showing very little wear after 75,000 miles
3 rd photo shows old and new flywheels side by side . New flywheel is 8mm thinner than old one. Will this cause a problem with existing spline length in gearbox. ?
Next photo shows clutchplate. No bluing , scratches or visible wear.
Given the new friction plate is same thickness as old friction plate and not a mark on it , I am considering just change bearing. After all it looks like replacement stuff is not as good as old stuff.
If I find myself doing again in six months time. I will be quicker and just have more fun

It's not a money thing. But apart from the bearing my amateur eye sees no real wear
Your opinions gratefully received at this stage.
 

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Thanks all your advise is gratefully received.
The new clutch and flywheel I bought seems to throw up yet another couple of questions
Photos below show
First one behind flywheel.
No leaks at all looks good
Second one shows old flywheel hardly any wear just a couple of teeth showing very little wear after 75,000 miles
3 rd photo shows old and new flywheels side by side . New flywheel is 8mm thinner than old one. Will this cause a problem with existing spline length in gearbox. ?
Next photo shows clutchplate. No bluing , scratches or visible wear.
Given the new friction plate is same thickness as old friction plate and not a mark on it , I am considering just change bearing. After all it looks like replacement stuff is not as good as old stuff.
If I find myself doing again in six months time. I will be quicker and just have more fun

It's not a money thing. But apart from the bearing my amateur eye sees no real wear
Your opinions gratefully received at this stage.
Hmm? Well, sorry to say but I see more than a little evidence of oil in these pics. Your pics are of good resolution so I was able to enlarge them considerably. There's oil residue on the rear main seal and on the lower parts of the casing. It's not absolutely "swimming" in it, but not "dry" either. Looking at the top left part of the picture there's something (black cylindrical) which looks absolutely dripping in oil? Further investigation required perhaps? That rear seal is a lip seal, just a bit larger than the one on your gearbox, this type of seal is prone to hardening with age and heat which then means they tend to leak, I'd be inclined to renew that rear seal if it were me I think. Checking out why the black cylindrical "thing" is damp would be a good idea too.

Regarding the flywheel teeth. This, from the look of it, is obviously a solid flywheel? - ie not dual mass? (many later model diesels use dual mass) Had it been dual mass then I would have replaced it anyway. However as it's a solid flywheel the two big things which would warrant further action are if the face where the lining rubs against it are scored or heat damaged or if the ring gear teeth are badly worn/damaged. There is a small amount of tooth wear but that's about all. I'd have reused it. There is evidence of oil contamination on the old flywheel too though. Remember this component is rotating at high speed so you're not going to see "puddles" of oil, just a dampness as liquid oil will be thrown off.

Rather more disturbing is that if you look at the 4th picture along - the cover assembly - if you look at the 3 recesses in the friction face you can plainly see (or you can if you enlarge the image) that there seems to be oil in them. Looking at the two flywheels together in the last image again the used flywheel is showing obvious signs of oil contamination so oil is getting on this from somewhere - doesn't the friction lining show signs of oil contamination? Comparing the two flywheels I think the new flywheel just looks noticeably different and is obviously not going to locate the driven plate splines as far onto the gearbox input shaft as with the original flywheel fitted. You also need to think about the position of the diaphragm fingers? they will probably be a bit further away from the release bearing with the thinner flywheel fitted so the throw of the release arm and the travel in the slave cylinder may not work with it? Also possibly relevant, is that the "reluctor ring" (toothed ring) which works in conjunction with the crankshaft position sensor, is flywheel mounted and if this new flywheel is the wrong one for your engine it may not be timed up the same which would cause running problems?

The more I look at your pictures and read what you are saying I'm becoming more and more convinced that your supplier has wrongly identified your vehicle and the parts you have been sent are actually for another application and not suitable for your vehicle? If it was me I'd be sending the whole lot back before I did something to it which might give the supplier an excuse to refuse it. Sorry, I hate to be the bringer of bad news, even if by now, after a life in and around the motor trade, I should be used to giving people bad news!
 
Oil you see is a freeing oil sprayed on from a small distance so it didn't quite hit its intended target. I did spray again after loosening bolts to free flywheel from stub.
Have to admit noticed it myself .wasn't until I smelt it that I realised what it actuall was. With regard to the actual clutch and plate jury's still out on that one depends on what advice given here. Have to say glad to hear you think I could reuse the flywheel.
I have repacked new kit and supplier is picking it up tomorrow. Also supplier is paying return courier and has offered me a full refund. If that happens I will let all know who that is .I take your advice about renewing seal . After all i wont forking out for a flywheel now.
Big thanks
Gromit
 
Hi folks Does anyone know Torque settings for flywheel bolts please.
 
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